DROS - Military ID - Photocopying?

[Admiral_Tolwyn]

Long time lurker but decided to make an account now that I keep running into the same thing.

It is against Federal Law to make photocopies of military IDs:

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=63581

http://www.army.mil/article/28452/photocopying-military-cac-ids-a-violation-of-federal-law/

Yet practically every FFL in CA I go to insists on making a photocopy when I try to DROS and use the military exemption for HSC. Only one has an alternative of having an affidavit in lieu. It's gotten so bad I've broken down and gotten an HSC (RifleGear, they said somehow they could trump Federal Law but I just gave up and coughed up the unnecessary $25) so I'm wondering if there's credence that FFLs can legally make copies of Military IDs.

Anyone know?

[hermosabeach]

You are not making the copy.


When the FFL is audited- once or more per year, they need to validate why they waived the HSC requirement.


We live in an imperfect world with lots of conflicting regulations.

[LoneYote]

Since everything is selectively enforced I would imagine this isn't an issue until the ATF wants to slam some FFL but can't find anything real.

[Dvrjon]

I'd come across this a number of times. One shop said they'd talked to BATFE and were told it was OK. Apparently, BATFE can make or override federal laws.

Now I use my CCW.

As long as they are the ones doing the copying, the violation is on them. You, of course, simply gave them the I.D., and weren't aware they copied it, right?

Or, you could share with them the DOJ's position on the subject: http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hscfaqs#c4

Q.: It is illegal to photocopy federal credentials. How do I retain a copy of the proof of exemption documentation for individuals with federal credentials?
A.: For individuals with federal credentials record the person's name, federal agency, and credential number rather than photocopying the credentials.

[kddinsd]

Why would BATFE/ATF be involved at all? Last time I looked, the HSC is a California requirement, not Federal...

[Admiral_Tolwyn]

I'd come across this a number of times. One shop said they'd talked to BATFE and were told it was OK. Apparently, BATFE can make or override federal laws.

Now I use my CCW.

As long as they are the ones doing the copying, the violation is on them. You, of course, simply gave them the I.D., and weren't aware they copied it, right?

Or, you could share with them the DOJ's position on the subject: http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hscfaqs#c4

Curses! I coulda sworn I looked up and down on the DOJ website. Grrrr $25 down the drain, oh well, I contributed the fund that helps suppress our rights so it's all good

[ixta70]

Curses! I coulda sworn I looked up and down on the DOJ website. Grrrr $25 down the drain, oh well, I contributed the fund that helps suppress our rights so it's all good

$25 for what exactly? And was it recent? I would print that out and go get a refund.

[Dvrjon]

Why would BATFE/ATF be involved at all? Last time I looked, the HSC is a California requirement, not Federal...

The copying of a federal credential is a federal crime. Perhaps the shop thought the federal agency in charge of firearms would be able to provide insight into the commission of a federal crime related to meeting the requirements of the State of California exemption for the HSC?

I didn't say it made sense.

I jus' tells the stories...I don' 'splain 'em.

(Aren't "BATFE" and "ATF" the same thing?). http://www.atf.gov

[Dvrjon]

Curses! I coulda sworn I looked up and down on the DOJ website. Grrrr $25 down the drain, oh well, I contributed the fund that helps suppress our rights so it's all good

Now make sure that all of your mil.spec buddies know the answer. Amortize the cost of your education over a 1,000 GIs.

[Admiral_Tolwyn]

$25 for what exactly? And was it recent? I would print that out and go get a refund.

$25 for the HSC.

[pacrat]

ca-doj website

4.It is illegal to photocopy federal credentials. How do I retain a copy of the proof of exemption documentation for individuals with federal credentials?
For individuals with federal credentials record the person's name, federal agency, and credential number rather than photocopying the credentials.

Counter monkey at a LGS is the worst place to get "legal" advice Re. gun laws.

Rather than an honest " I don't know, but will find out " response. You get some made up manure so they can appear smart to peeps dumb enuff to believe their BS.

JM2c

[BONECUTTER]

Well the way it was explained to me by both ATF and DOJ.

Based on the law:

except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

Since CA DOJ requires proof of the exemption this is why the dealer needs to make a copy.

When you look at the exemption codes and the Dealer HSC manual.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/hscman.pdf

X01 = Special Weapons Permit Holder
X02 = Operation of Law Representative
X03 = Handgun being returned to the owner
X13 = FFL collector with COE (curio and relic handguns only)
X21 = Military - Active Duty
X22 = Military - Reserve
X25 = Military - Honorably Retired
X31 = Peace Officer - California - Active
X32 = Peace Officer - Federal - Active
X33 = Peace Officer - California - Honorably Retired
X34 = Peace Officer - California - Reserve
X35 = Peace Officer - Federal - Honorably Retired
X41 = Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) Permit Holder
X81 = P.O.S.T. 832 PC (Firearms) Training
X91 = Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers
X95 = Law Enforcement Service Gun to Family Member

You must record the applicable exemption code in the HSC field of the DROS and a copy of the proof of exemption documentation with the original DROS. Pursuant to Federal Criminal Code, Title 18, section 701, DOJ will not accept a handgun DROS transaction for processing unless it has the HSC number or the appropriate exemption status code recorded on it.

DOJ only considers Federal credentials as Federal Law Enforcement and not a Military ID.

Since a dealer can be cited by DOJ you can let them take a copy or get an HSC card but blame CA DOJ and not the dealer.

[Condorguns]

DOJ has told me in audit s that Military I'd has to be photo copied.

[Josh3239]

California has a form that we use, it it essentially an affidavit that the salesman signed that says we swear we have seen a military ID. We've been using it for years, and considering how much guns we move we differently get audited more than most stores.

I'll have to find those forms someday. But we record Agency, Department Role, HSC exemption, and ID number.

[kyle.]

Well the way it was explained to me by both ATF and DOJ.

Based on the law:


Since CA DOJ requires proof of the exemption this is why the dealer needs to make a copy.

When you look at the exemption codes and the Dealer HSC manual.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/hscman.pdf

X01 = Special Weapons Permit Holder
X02 = Operation of Law Representative
X03 = Handgun being returned to the owner
X13 = FFL collector with COE (curio and relic handguns only)
X21 = Military - Active Duty
X22 = Military - Reserve
X25 = Military - Honorably Retired
X31 = Peace Officer - California - Active
X32 = Peace Officer - Federal - Active
X33 = Peace Officer - California - Honorably Retired
X34 = Peace Officer - California - Reserve
X35 = Peace Officer - Federal - Honorably Retired
X41 = Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) Permit Holder
X81 = P.O.S.T. 832 PC (Firearms) Training
X91 = Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers
X95 = Law Enforcement Service Gun to Family Member


DOJ only considers Federal credentials as Federal Law Enforcement and not a Military ID.

Since a dealer can be cited by DOJ you can let them take a copy or get an HSC card but blame CA DOJ and not the dealer.

#nuffsaid