? Explain this

[Condorguns]

Ok, had a long gun come back undetermined on a PPT. In the past I have released undetermined, but this time I am not releasing to the buyer (long story). Called DOJ and asked if I cancel the DROS as the firearm will not be delivered to the buyer. DOJ said NO, just deliver it and mark it returned to seller in the A&D book.

This sounds wrong but even after arguing with them they said this was the way to do it. So now I have a shotgun marked delivered to the wrong person. I did submit a Issue report via the system reporting that the gun went to the seller not the buyer.

Am I missing something here? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

[kemasa]

Well, there are multiple ways in looking at it. When you mark it as delivered, you are not saying who you delivered it to. Personally, I would not mark it as delivered though.

Since the buyer was not denied, there is an issue with returning it to the seller as it is unknown if a background check was done on the seller, so when you fill out the 4473 you can not use the original DROS for the background check (you do know that when you return the firearm to the seller you have to fill out a 4473, don't you? Federal law is different than CA law).

At a guess, the best way to deal with this is to submit a DROS for the seller. Yes, it costs more, but unless you can resolve the other issues, it might be safer.

[Condorguns]

[QUOTE=kemasa;14274952]Well, there are multiple ways in looking at it. When you mark it as delivered, you are not saying who you delivered it to.

that is exactly what you are doing when you click delivered. That's why some FFL's had an issue with the not hitting the delivered button. Guys tried to get CCW's and the gun came back not in their name because the gun wont hit the system until it is delivered.

Personally, I would not mark it as delivered though.

Just leave it hanging on your system?

Since the buyer was not denied, there is an issue with returning it to the seller as it is unknown if a background check was done on the seller,

They do check the seller. The call I got was the buyer was undetermined and the seller was fine. My understanding of California law was in this case then firearm can be immediately returned to the seller. Can you provide a cite that addressed the redrosing of the seller in this situation. I have never seen it.

so when you fill out the 4473 you can not use the original DROS for the background check (you do know that when you return the firearm to the seller you have to fill out a 4473, don't you? Federal law is different than CA law).

Going to need another cite here please.

QUOTE]

[kemasa]

that is exactly what you are doing when you click delivered. That's why some FFL's had an issue with the not hitting the delivered button. Guys tried to get CCW's and the gun came back not in their name because the gun wont hit the system until it is delivered.

I don't understand the comment about why FFLs don't want to click on the delivered button. It seems far more likely that they just don't check, so that they don't see it.

Just leave it hanging on your system?

After 30 days it is over.

They do check the seller. The call I got was the buyer was undetermined and the seller was fine. My understanding of California law was in this case then firearm can be immediately returned to the seller. Can you provide a cite that addressed the redrosing of the seller in this situation. I have never seen it.

Do you have any proof they they checked the seller? The buyer was not denied and they say that they check the seller if the buyer is denied, at which point it can be returned to the seller. If you don't have proof that the seller has had a background check for this transaction within 30 days, you have to submit another one per Federal law.

so when you fill out the 4473 you can not use the original DROS for the background check (you do know that when you return the firearm to the seller you have to fill out a 4473, don't you? Federal law is different than CA law).

Going to need another cite here please.

Which part? Talk to the BATF about having to fill out a 4473. If you don't know that a background check was done on the seller within 30 days, you have to do another background check, again Federal law.

The only exemption for returning a firearm to a person without a 4473 is for gunsmithing under Federal law.

[Condorguns]

OK, I think the consensus at DOJ is that they have no clue how to handle this. On the phone I get deliver it and that's it. It bothered me so here is the written response.

DOJ Response (06/12/2014 12:20 PM ): since it now shows that the purchaser has the firearm, please cancel the DROS. Printout the cancelled DROS and make note on the cancelled DROS and in your A&D book that it was returned to seller.

said (06/12/2014 02:11 PM ): got it thank you.


said (06/12/2014 02:14 PM ): In the future if the buyer is undetermined and we return the gun to the seller do you want us to cancel the DROS or just leave it as undelivered on our system?


DOJ Response (06/12/2014 03:53 PM ): You can give the gun back to the seller after we determine that it is ok to, the status we reported to you on the phone. You have two options, you can deliver the firearm or cancel the DROS. It must be either delivered or cancelled.

That's great...clear as mud. From now on if we return to a seller we are just going to cancel the DROS. If we release to the buyer mark it delivered. They should have added an option for us to choose who we are releasing to if they want us to make these choices.

[Condorguns]

Sorry Kemasa, I thought I had included in the OP that when they called me to give me the updated number that they told me the buyer was undetermined, but that the seller had come back clean. I didn't give you all the info, sorry.

[kemasa]

You do understand that you need to fill out a 4473 on the seller when it is returned to them, correct?

Yes, the way the system works is that delivered means to the buyer. That means you need to cancel or not deliver the firearm, not mark it as delivered. Then the issue is how to get it back to the seller, but remember to not listen to the CA DOJ regarding Federal requirements.