Release after 30

[REH]

[kemasa]

The FFL has to get a letter from the CA DOJ saying that it can be released. A FFL, under Federal law, can not release a firearm unless a background check has been done within 30 days.

There was some instructions on what to do with delays which were started last year, so you might want to ask your FFL about it.

[REH]

The FFL has to get a letter from the CA DOJ saying that it can be released. A FFL, under Federal law, can not release a firearm unless a background check has been done within 30 days.

There was some instructions on what to do with delays which were started last year, so you might want to ask your FFL about it.

I'm the FFL. I understand about the letter being faxed to DOJ after the 30 day delay, then they fax it back, before the release. My concern is the criminal liability for the FFL if it is latter learned the person is a prohibitive person.

[lorax3]

My concern is the criminal liability for the FFL if it is latter learned the person is a prohibitive person.

I do not see a high probability for an FFL to face criminal charges after following the documented procedures of the administrative agency in charge of firearms for the state. (CA DOJ)

In free states where only NICS is used, I'm sure there are also bad guys who fall through the cracks. So long as the FFL dotted all their Ts and uses reasonable judgement I would not worry about it.

[kemasa]

If the law and the CA DOJ allowed it to be released, the odds of the person being a criminal is low. Most likely the problem exists for other reasons, such as owing money or charges being dropped (which means that the person is not a criminal) and no record of it.

[ugimports]

All DROSs before 1/1/2014 are part of AB500.. I had a customer that was on DELAY since November 2012. When 1/1/2014 rolled around I faxed in the form...got my response within 3 days (1/3/2014) released firearm to him yesterday. Came back from DOJ as Undetermined. I marked on 4473:
21c Delayed
21d No Resolution was provided within 3 business days

[REH]

All DROSs before 1/1/2014 are part of AB500.. I had a customer that was on DELAY since November 2012. When 1/1/2014 rolled around I faxed in the form...got my response within 3 days (1/3/2014) released firearm to him yesterday. Came back from DOJ as Undetermined. I marked on 4473:
21c Delayed
21d No Resolution was provided within 3 business days

WOW.....the person I spoke with is really uninformed. She said the DROS that was submitted December 2013 that is on delay, does not fall under the 30 day release. She also stated the fax letter is an acknowledgement from DOJ that the firearm will be released not an OK for release.

[ugimports]

WOW.....the person I spoke with is really uninformed. She said the DROS that was submitted December 2013 that is on delay, does not fall under the 30 day release. She also stated the fax letter is an acknowledgement from DOJ that the firearm will be released not an OK for release.

Or i completely effed up -- I made my actions based on the bulletin they mailed dated 12/16/2013

It does say "Beginning 1/1/2014 all DROS delays will be limited to a max of 30 days"..... I had a delay from Nov 2012 and it was 1/1.. so I filed the paperwork because that was longer than 30 days

Prior to delivering the firearm I submitted the form as required.
The Department provided their response within 3 days.
I kept the BOF991 form with the original DROS to demonstrate compliance with state and federal laws as required.

The bulletin further states "After the department returns the form the dealer will have 30 days to deliver the firearm." (paraphrased by me)

So I don't think I can get nailed too hard following the procedure they gave me. They saw the original DROS date because I had to list it on BOF991 with the original DROS number. I'm assuming if it was a "No Go" they would have told me something else rather than completing their portion and faxing it back to me.

[The Squatch]

All DROSs before 1/1/2014 are part of AB500.. I had a customer that was on DELAY since November 2012. When 1/1/2014 rolled around I faxed in the form...got my response within 3 days (1/3/2014) released firearm to him yesterday. Came back from DOJ as Undetermined. I marked on 4473:
21c Delayed
21d No Resolution was provided within 3 business days

You are correct in your actions and markings on the 4473. I have a few of these same instances and went into thorough detail with DOJ regarding these forms this morning. When they fax the form back within three days we may release the firearm with an "Undetermined" or "Approved" response. (Obviously not if DOJ marks Denied). "Undeterminded" means that DOJ is still doing the background check (most likely trying to get ahold of older court files that aren't computerized) but we can release the firearm. If DOJ is able complete the background and finds out the purchaser is denied after the FFL releases the firearm, DOJ along with local PD are in charge of getting the firearm back from the purchaser. As long as the FFL has all the paperwork kept and filled out correctly there isn't anything to worry about.

[ugimports]

You are correct in your actions and markings on the 4473. I have a few of these same instances and went into thorough detail with DOJ regarding these forms this morning. When they fax the form back within three days we may release the firearm with an "Undetermined" or "Approved" response. (Obviously not if DOJ marks Denied). "Undeterminded" means that DOJ is still doing the background check (most likely trying to get ahold of older court files that aren't computerized) but we can release the firearm. If DOJ is able complete the background and finds out the purchaser is denied after the FFL releases the firearm, DOJ along with local PD are in charge of getting the firearm back from the purchaser. As long as the FFL has all the paperwork kept and filled out correctly there isn't anything to worry about.

If you ever get a response after it's released remember to go back to the 4473 and mark 21e appropriately.

[lugnutwrench]

If you ever get a response after it's released remember to go back to the 4473 and mark 21e appropriately.

This is interesting, since there's probably no record of those things in the new DES. In other words, because the DOJ has been sitting on these things for so long, there's no way to comply with . Is there another form we're supposed to fax in saying we elected to deliver?

[ugimports]

This is interesting, since there's probably no record of those things in the new DES. In other words, because the DOJ has been sitting on these things for so long, there's no way to comply with . Is there another form we're supposed to fax in saying we elected to deliver?

Yeah not sure on that one.

[The Squatch]

This is interesting, since there's probably no record of those things in the new DES. In other words, because the DOJ has been sitting on these things for so long, there's no way to comply with . Is there another form we're supposed to fax in saying we elected to deliver?

DOJ said that any of the old DROS' from the old system that didn't transfer over to the new system will be treated as the old DROS' were. I asked the same thing when I went to log one out earlier today (Because they previously said to still print the new "Delivered" DROS and have the customer sign it).

[GPC]

I see the potential for civil liability if the dealer releases the firearm under an undetermined status, the buyer turns out to be a prohibited person and later injures or kills a person with that firearm. All FFL holders have two masters, the Feds and the State. Pleasing one does not always please the other!

[lugnutwrench]

I see the potential for civil liability if the dealer releases the firearm under an undetermined status, the buyer turns out to be a prohibited person and later injures or kills a person with that firearm. All FFL holders have two masters, the Feds and the State. Pleasing one does not always please the other!

If the FFL has reason to believe the transferee may be a prohibited person, beyond merely the "undetermined" status, I would think they would have a duty to withhold the forearm. However, the law allows for delivery, and the DOJ has consistently demonstrated it does not have the capacity to perform many checks in a timely way. Those lengthy checks often result in deliver decisions, so, in my mind, an "undetermined" status alone cannot provide a reasonable FFL with any useful information.

EDIT 1: This likely means that if there's anything facially wrong with any of the forms (e.g., 20 year old trying to buy a handgun, lack of proof of residence, even just a discrepancy between the DROS AND THE 4473, etc.), the FFL should probably know better and not deliver even if there was a delay beyond 30 days. Before you fax in the post 30 day form, you might want to re-re-re-check those forms, even if they've already been subjected to whatever audit process you have in place.

EDIT 2: On the subject of two masters, the release would definitely have to comport with both federal and state regulations. In the case of California, assuming no other issues present with the transfer, and all other requirements were met, the DROS allowable delay exceeds the federal delay, so that alone should not be a problem.