NON-secondhand FFL selling secondhand?

[hakuna]

So I have customers that have guns they want to sell, but I'm not a consignment dealer (not licensed for secondhand selling).

Situation Number 1: I'm wondering if it would be legal for me to list their guns for sale to find a buyer (they keep possession of their gun) for a fee. Then the buyer I locate finds an FFL and I ship the gun to that FFL for my customer..the customer's final bill from me will simply be for shipping and my fee for doing the legwork. Essentially most of what I'm doing has nothing to do with me being a Type 01 FFL other than I'll ship it USPS. (all the above is assuming I don't find a local buyer because that would be a PPT)

Situation Number 2: I find a buyer for their gun then just buy the gun from them outright and put it in my inventory. I pay them and enter it into my bound book and send in a handgun acquisition if it's a handgun. Then I sell the gun to the buyer I found with a markup.

Situation Number 3: (The one I really want to do) I list the gun on gunbroker as if I own it. When somebody wins the bid, I need to send them the gun. I buy it from my customer outright into my inventory as per situation 2. I send the gun to the gunbroker buyer. I do NOT get paid a consignment percentage. I just pay a flat price for the gun to my customer who won't really know who I'm selling to anyhow and the gun isn't in my possession until I buy it into inventory. (the real danger is if the customer backed out I'd risk an angry gunbroker bidder, but that isn't my question...I'm wondering about legality)

Are all these legal? None? Some? Your comments and suggestions on how to proceed would be MUCH appreciated.

Gary

[acespawnshop]

Suggestion, get a secondhand dealer license. And get with the FDAS system and buy the secondhand guns.

[ASD1]

^^^ THIS ^^^

[kemasa]

#2 and #3 are an issue because you would be purchasing firearms for your inventory and for resale, for which you don't have the required permits, which makes it illegal.

#1 might be possible, but there could be an issue with your intent to get around not having the required permits. Also, there could be a problem since you mention items #2 & #3, which goes to show your intent.

As said, either get the required permits or don't try to be a secondhand dealer.

[hakuna]

Thanks! This is why I asked because I knew you guys would steer me straight. I may have missed something though. As a 01FFL are you saying I can only sell a new gun? What if a customer buys a used gun off Gunbroker and it's shipped to me to do the transfer? I mean, what creates the need for a "Required" secondhand permit? I'm guessing it's when I have a secondhand gun for sale, rather than someone buying a secondhand gun through me. Is that it?

Thanks,
Gary

[kemasa]

Buying a firearm from a private party for your inventory is what a secondhand dealer is for.

Transfers are not buying for your inventory.

I am not sure of buying a firearm from out of state for your inventory from a non-FFL as you could not fill out all the required paperwork.

[hakuna]

Hmm... let's just say hypothetically I bought a used C&R gun to fix up and sell. Since I don't have the secondhand license (looks like I'll be getting one) what are my options? I'm guessing I'll have to transfer it into my private collection and my "quick turn around" will take a year, so I can put it up for sale out of my collection? Any other way to do it before I get my 2ndhand license?

[kemasa]

You can buy a used firearm from another FFL without being a secondhand dealer, but buying it to fix up and sell it, it could be considered manufacturing (strange as it seems).

If you buy a firearm and transfer it to your personal collection without a 4473, then if you sell it before a year is up, you have to run it though your book. There is also the logging of selling of personal firearms as well.

[hakuna]

I hate to be so ignorant, but I can't find anywhere a FAQ on FFLs and personal firearms. I just spent an hour reading threads and what I've come up with is mostly about transferring guns INTO my personal collection. As a sole proprietor I can purchase a long gun, log it into my A&D book and then dispose of it into my personal collection. Now, IF I hold it for over a year I can then just sell it in a PPT. If I DON'T hold it for over a year what do I do?

"run it through my book" means that I log it again...as in AQUIRING it from my collection back into my inventory and then I can just sell it using a 4473 and DROS form for the new buyer?

I can't find anywhere what "the logging of selling of personal firearms" means either. Dang I'm pretty good at reading FAQs and researching, but I'm not finding what I need to know on this issue.

Thanks for your patience Kemasa and others!

Gary

[kemasa]

I hate to be so ignorant, but I can't find anywhere a FAQ on FFLs and personal firearms.

Well, perhaps you can write one :-).

I just spent an hour reading threads and what I've come up with is mostly about transferring guns INTO my personal collection. As a sole proprietor I can purchase a long gun, log it into my A&D book and then dispose of it into my personal collection. Now, IF I hold it for over a year I can then just sell it in a PPT. If I DON'T hold it for over a year what do I do?

First off, the 1 year only applies if you don't fill out a 4473, which as a sole proprietor you don't need to fill out. Yes, if you have it over a year, then you can just sell it however you want, as long as it is legal. If you don't hold it a year, then you need to re-enter it into your bound book. This means that you can do it as a PPT, but you can't take it to another FFL to do the PPT. You can also ship it to another FFL, as coming from your FFL.

While not required, it is a bit "safer" to just run firearms through your business. It does not matter as much in CA since almost all transfers have to go through a dealer. If you sold a firearm and shipped it, you could personally ship it, but you might as well just ship it through your business with all the logging, but again, that is not required if it is over a year.

"run it through my book" means that I log it again...as in AQUIRING it from my collection back into my inventory and then I can just sell it using a 4473 and DROS form for the new buyer?

Correct.

I can't find anywhere what "the logging of selling of personal firearms" means either. Dang I'm pretty good at reading FAQs and researching, but I'm not finding what I need to know on this issue.

No where? The Federal Code is somewhat your friend :-). I guess you don't have the Federal Code numbers memorized yet.

[hakuna]

Kemasa, when I get all this sorted out, I'll give a shot to writing a FAQ!

In my searching and reading I must have read 475.128a six or seven times trying to make sense of it. Now that you've pointed out its specifically about logging personal firearms it makes more sense. The way I read it, it says:

An FFL doesn't need to do a 4473 when selling a gun from his(or her) personal collection as long as:
1) He's held it a year
2) He logged it in his bound book when he got it
3) He logged out of his bound book into his personal collection
4) When it's sold from his personal collection he logs to whom he transferred the gun in the bound book


In California it seems a lot simpler just to skip this since FFLs are always involved in a transaction and nothing is really "off book" (again, I got that from you)

So the list is starting to look like this for an 01 FFL:

Buy a gun from another FFL new or used and sell it to anyone w/4473+DROS

Buy a gun from a private party to sell only if you have a secondhand license.

Buy a gun from another FFL or a private party for your personal collection logging it through your bound book.

Sell a gun from your personal collection by logging it back into your bound book to sell to anyone using 4473+DROS.

Do NOT sell a gun from your personal collection that you acquired from a private party in order to circumvent the secondhand licensing requirement.

An FFL is not required to keep a separate book for personal firearms nor is he required to log the personal firearms he has when he becomes an FFL. The FFL merely logs any firearms he sells whether personal or otherwise. The exception to this is using the 475.128a rule, but California will require an FFL logging somewhere anyhow so it doesn't really apply.

How am I doing?

Gary

[kemasa]

Kemasa, when I get all this sorted out, I'll give a shot to writing a FAQ!

In my searching and reading I must have read 475.128a six or seven times trying to make sense of it. Now that you've pointed out its specifically about logging personal firearms it makes more sense. The way I read it, it says:

An FFL doesn't need to do a 4473 when selling a gun from his(or her) personal collection as long as:
1) He's held it a year
2) He logged it in his bound book when he got it
3) He logged out of his bound book into his personal collection
4) When it's sold from his personal collection he logs to whom he transferred the gun in the bound book

What 478.125a (you seem to have done a typo on the number) is about is in transferring a firearm to the FFL's personal collection, rather than the other way around.

A FFL does not need to fill out a 4473 when they transfer a firearm to their personal collection if they follow the listed items, which is what 125a is about.

In California it seems a lot simpler just to skip this since FFLs are always involved in a transaction and nothing is really "off book" (again, I got that from you)

Almost always. Long guns over 50 years old can be transferred FTF without a FFL.

So the list is starting to look like this for an 01 FFL:

Buy a gun from another FFL new or used and sell it to anyone w/4473+DROS

Buy a gun from a private party to sell only if you have a secondhand license.

Buy a gun from another FFL or a private party for your personal collection logging it through your bound book.

Yes, but it is also important to realize that if you buy a firearm and do all the paperwork at another FFL, you need, as a sole proprietor, need to log the firearm in your bound book. So if you went to another FFL and did a PPT of a handgun, when you get back, you still need to log in your book, but since the CA requirements have been done you don't need to do another DROS.

Sell a gun from your personal collection by logging it back into your bound book to sell to anyone using 4473+DROS.

That is the "safe" method, but if you have had the firearm over a year, you need not log it into your bound book. If you did not do a 4473 as under 478.125a, you still need to enter it into the disposition record of personal firearms. It is also a "safe" idea to enter any firearms that you sell, but I am not sure that it is required.

Do NOT sell a gun from your personal collection that you acquired from a private party in order to circumvent the secondhand licensing requirement.

An FFL is not required to keep a separate book for personal firearms nor is he required to log the personal firearms he has when he becomes an FFL. The FFL merely logs any firearms he sells whether personal or otherwise. The exception to this is using the 475.128a rule, but California will require an FFL logging somewhere anyhow so it doesn't really apply.

CA is a separate issue since there is Federal and State laws, so to say it does not really apply is not quite correct. Some of 125a does not really make sense because CA law requires most transfers go through a FFL. Federal law does not change because of State requirements. You still need to follow Federal law.

There is no real exception under 478.125a, other than not having to fill out the 4473, but it does also add additional requirements, such as running it through your bound book if you sell it in under a year, which makes a CA PPT a bit more limited.

How am I doing?

Pretty good.

[hakuna]

LOL. Alright, I'll try to sort this out, but I have one related quick question:

I bought a C&R Winchester 97 (made in 1902) from a private party a week or so ago and logged it into my book. I have a guy that wants to buy it from me. Since it's C&R and it's in my book, what's the proper way to sell it to him? He comes to my shop and I just dispose of it to him with a 4473 and DROS (since he's not a C&R licensee)? Or am I running afoul of the secondhand rule?

Gary

[kemasa]

I bought a C&R Winchester 97 (made in 1902) from a private party a week or so ago and logged it into my book. I have a guy that wants to buy it from me. Since it's C&R and it's in my book, what's the proper way to sell it to him? He comes to my shop and I just dispose of it to him with a 4473 and DROS (since he's not a C&R licensee)? Or am I running afoul of the secondhand rule?

Is it in your book, or do you transfer it out to yourself? If you did, that would help to show that it was not intended as inventory. You would then need to log it back in and then sell it.

If you sold it, you would need to do the 4473 and DROS from your business, but it could be viewed that you bought it as a secondhand dealer. How do you show that was not your intent? I know, innocent until proven guilty, but it is really guilty until proven guilty.

My opinion would be that it is best to not sell it right away, which would be the safe thing as well, but I am not going to say that it is the only way to go. To me, it looks much like a secondhand dealer issue.