FFL number disclosure

[popawoody]

I have a quick question to you folks in the FFL community. I'm a California resident. I'm trying to transfer in a new rifle to be purchased from an out of state FFL. I've asked a local FFL for his FFL license number... or at least the first three and last 5 digits so I can verify it. He refuses to give it to me, saying he will only disclose it to another FFL.

The firearm (a bolt-action, California legal long gun) is worth several thousand dollars. Before I trust the California agent with it, I'd at least like to verify his license. I've dealt with quite a few FFL holders over the years, including out-of-state gunsmiths. None have refused to give me their license number. Most will willingly fax a copy of the license itself.

My question is, has the firearms universe changed so much recently that this is typical? Is there some rationale to justify not disclosing your FFL number?

[SoCalRifles]

I have no problem giving out the first 3 and last 5 digits of my license. I don't think there would even be a problem giving out the whole number. The ATF's preferred method of license verification is FFL-EZ Check anyways, which requires those numbers. I would find a different FFL.

Now, faxing over the image of my license to a non-licensee is a different matter. There's the chance that they can try to use that copy to purchase a firearm.

My .02

[kemasa]

The BATF tells FFLs to not give out a copy of their FFL to non-licensees. Some still do, but it is just not a good idea due to possible abuse. Some even post their FFL on web pages.

There really isn't an issue since the selling FFL has to get a copy of the FFL before shipping, so you know that there is no issue with the receiving FFL in terms of their license.

Home-based FFLs might be less likely to give out any information until the firearm arrives since you never know who you are dealing with. How does the FFL know that you are not just trying to get information from him in order to do something bad? It goes both ways.

To give you an example of why a FFL might not want to give out information is that I recently had an issue where a seller (non-FFL) claimed to ship a firearm through a FFL, but that was not the case and it was a problem since there was no CFLC letter. Even with the numbers for the BATF ezcheck web page is enough for a person to send it.

[ke6guj]

since the FFLs info is public data and can be freely looked up on the ATF website, I don't see the benefit in the FFL withholding the 3+5 digits when I can get the entire 15-digit number in just a couple minutes.

[kemasa]

Yes, if you know the name and know where to look, you can find it, but that does not mean you want to make it easy.

In the example I gave, if I had not required a copy of the ID before giving my address, I might not have ever received it.

[tenpercentfirearms]

http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/ffl-list.html

[popawoody]

Thanks everyone. UPS, by the way, requires an actual copy of the receiving dealer's FFL when a non-dealer sends a firearm to an FFL. This may not be a nation-wide policy, but it is definitely the case at the main Los Angeles service center. Until now, I've never had a dealer refuse to fax me a copy of their FFL, though they do usually mark them with "File Copy" or something similar.

[GM4spd]

Thanks everyone. UPS, by the way, requires an actual copy of the receiving dealer's FFL when a non-dealer sends a firearm to an FFL. This may not be a nation-wide policy, but it is definitely the case at the main Los Angeles service center. Until now, I've never had a dealer refuse to fax me a copy of their FFL, though they do usually mark them with "File Copy" or something similar.

I guess each UPS station can be different,my local one in Newbury Park
has been taking EZ check info for a few years now with no hassle,even
sending handguns.Pete

[Olav]

You can use http://www.gunetools.com to look up the first three last five digits and there is a link supplied to do the FFL eZ check too.

The db is current up to Dec last year.

[popawoody]

I guess each UPS station can be different,my local one in Newbury Park
has been taking EZ check info for a few years now with no hassle,even
sending handguns.Pete

I suspect this is a fairly new policy and you're right, it seems to be imposed on a station-by-station basis. There's no mention of it on the UPS: Shipping Firearms page.

Despite this, I was turned away when shipping a handgun to an out-of-state gunsmith last month because I didn't have a "physical copy of the receiving dealer's FFL". I had the number, mind you. The gunsmith was happy to fax me a copy, marked "File Copy Only".

When I complained at UPS, saying the requirement was not mentioned in the official UPS guidelines, I was told it was a policy imposed by "UPS Security".

Bureaucracy is a giant mechanism operated by pygmies. -- Balzac

[popawoody]

http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/ffl-list.html

This certainly puts and end to the "Is it public record?" question. Thanks!

[kemasa]

Thanks everyone. UPS, by the way, requires an actual copy of the receiving dealer's FFL when a non-dealer sends a firearm to an FFL. This may not be a nation-wide policy, but it is definitely the case at the main Los Angeles service center. Until now, I've never had a dealer refuse to fax me a copy of their FFL, though they do usually mark them with "File Copy" or something similar.

A UPS facility in Florida had that policy, until I called Corp. and they got educated. They are making up the policy, which UPS does not allow them to do. This can also create an issue for them since then if there is any abuse with the FFL, they could be blamed, which UPS Corp. does not want.

[kemasa]

This certainly puts and end to the "Is it public record?" question. Thanks!

The problem is the FOIA is not kept up to date, so it is really not accurate as the FFL could have had their FFL revoked and the FOIA will not show that for around a month or so.

[kemasa]

I suspect this is a fairly new policy and you're right, it seems to be imposed on a station-by-station basis. There's no mention of it on the UPS: Shipping Firearms page.

It is not a new policy, it is just made up by the facility and so it can be pushed with Corp., as I did before.

Despite this, I was turned away when shipping a handgun to an out-of-state gunsmith last month because I didn't have a "physical copy of the receiving dealer's FFL". I had the number, mind you. The gunsmith was happy to fax me a copy, marked "File Copy Only".

That is the gunsmith's choice, but it is not required and it is suggested to not do that.

When I complained at UPS, saying the requirement was not mentioned in the official UPS guidelines, I was told it was a policy imposed by "UPS Security".

That is a nice answer, but then there would be something printed which they could present and I am willing to bet that they can't or won't do that and if they do, it will only be a local memo.

[ke6guj]

The problem is the FOIA is not kept up to date, so it is really not accurate as the FFL could have had their FFL revoked and the FOIA will not show that for around a month or so.

right, but you can certainly take the FFL# and run it through ez-check to get a current staus of the FFL that way.