What's up with FFL transfer fees?

[EBR Works]

Given the fact that I've been looking for lowers for a few weeks now, and KNOW that there are quality lowers at super low prices online... The $75+ transfer fees are complete BS. Yes I get it that they have overhead, and have to contend with this screwy state's laws and regulations. But it all boils down to area dealers not making any effort to serve the customers. If you "can't get it", have it "back-ordered" etc... then help your customer out with lower fees when the customer can get it elsewhere online. Adding an extra $25 to the state fees seems reasonable, when the dealer can't seem to get the items. At least they'd be getting $25 by signing for a UPS package they didn't have to pay shipping for, on a product they didn't have in the first place. All they have to do is handle the background and DROS... which (Doh!) they would do on any firearm that sold in their shop. Seems far more reasonable if a dealer does 4 transfers for 4 people, makes $100; than if dealers sell $0 of nothing, or manages to get one person to buy $100 of the fluff he has on the shelf.
Seems like a win-win, the FFL dealer gets buisiness and supports customer service; the buyer gets a fair deal on a firearm; and we thumb our noses at a state that lost it's direction long ago.

Maybe you are not aware of a myriad of the other processes that every California FFL must complete with every inbound shipment from your originating dealer or private seller:

1) Deal with every firearm that is shipped in by documenting it's description in ATF mandated logs and tagging your firearm, box and accessories. Additionally, we keep track of your invoicing AND your California sales tax liability for which we are personally liable.

2) Deal with missing paperwork from your out of state originating dealer and private sellers necessitating a phone call and occasional arguments as to why they did not follow California specific documentation & shipping requirements. This happens a lot!

3) Open the box from your originating dealer or private seller only to find occasional items that are illegal in California. This incurs hours of hassle, legal exposure and attorneys fees that we typically cannot recoup.

4) Breaking down and disposing of the copious cardboard and shipping materials that came with your shipment. This has to be done daily or the shop will look like an episode of "Hoarding, Buried Alive".

5) Keeping your firearm and potentially boxes and accessories in our inventory for a minimum of 10 days. This assumes you come in and DROS the day it arrives. Typically we have it for 10+ days since not everyone comes in immediately. We have had some handguns in our safes for months until buyers of multiple handguns can wait for 1 in 30 restrictions to run out. Safes, security systems, surveillance systems, insurance and defensive firearms to protect your item and our personal safety are expensive.

6) Multiple self audits of every paperwork package to insure all Federal and State requirements are met before you leave to enjoy your new toy.

7) Potential for surprise visits from Federal, State and local agencies to insure compliance with their vast, confusing and ever changing regulations.

Theres more, but I think you get the idea that we do a lot behind the scenes that buyers never see. Much of this dealers in other States don't have to do. A small, full time shop with lots of volume can and will see 12-15 hour days for its limited number of employees. The amount of work is tremendous to keep everything running smoothly and keep you and government agencies happy.

[efillc]

To reiterate, I have no problem paying a fair percentage (I'd gladly pay $80+DROS to transfer a $1000 purchase), but I do have a problem paying $50+DROS to transfer a $200 one.

Maybe I'm being naieve, but I run a $16mil a year buisness and if I were in your shoes I'd charge based on percentage, get more for the big purchases and keep the smaller ones happy.

The same amount of work is involved for the transfer of a used $300 shotgun versus a new $30,000 trap shotgun. If you charge a percentage of the gun's value for a transfer, the guys buying $300 firearms will use you all day, while the ones getting $30,000 guns will go to the shop doing transfers for a flat $50 plus DROS.

[Colonel Monk]

What EBR said.

Really, it takes at least an hour and sometimes more to process an out of state transfer. EBR listed many of them, including the piles of boxes that you have to break down and recycle, shuttling guns around in and out of the safe, having your transferree show up without the proper documentation, the fact that you have to email the out of state dealer and send copies of credentials.....

And anyone who things you can just hire some minimum wage loser and trust them to handle the paperwork, think again. You cannot afford for any detail to be left out, it has to be perfect or your license and therefore your livelihood is on the line. It's boring, so you need employees that can remain vigilant even though they are totally sick of doing the paperwork.

Nobody hates this crap more than your FFL dealer. But the gubbermint has made it this way and we have to deal with it. Find me another industry with so low a profit margin and so much red tape - I'm not sure there is one.

I do believe that people regularly leave CA because it is so expensive in every way. This is one of those reasons, and I'm sure that some calgunners have left for greener pastures that are gun-related.

$100 bucks might be a little high, but then again, think of it from the FFL point of view (after all you are in the FFL forum) - they don't really want you to buy stuff from other people. They want you to buy stuff from them. Some are happy to get the scraps of transferring your internet purchase, and some aren't. Those that really don't like it, who have a store they've run for 30 years before the internet, REALLY don't like it. And to discourage it, they might charge you enough to make you reconsider this cheap gun from across the country. Really, can you blame them?

[kemasa]

To reiterate, I have no problem paying a fair percentage (I'd gladly pay $80+DROS to transfer a $1000 purchase), but I do have a problem paying $50+DROS to transfer a $200 one.

Why a percentage? The work the FFL does is the same. If you buy a $25 firearm, do you think that the FFL should lose money doing the transfer? Perhaps you would like to pay by the hour. What rate do you think would be acceptable? But you need to realize that there is more to be done than what you see.

See if you can get the CA DOJ to base their fees on the value of the firearm.

Personally, I find it annoying that typically the state get more money from sales tax than I do for doing all the work.

Maybe I'm being naieve, but I run a $16mil a year buisness and if I were in your shoes I'd charge based on percentage, get more for the big purchases and keep the smaller ones happy.

Well, if you run such a business, then you should be able to pay the fees and not be cheap about it.

Why should a person have to pay more because the firearm that they bought is more expensive? So you get night sights, you pay more? It is just an excuse as to why you don't want to pay, but you don't know all the costs, time and effort required to be a FFL.

[ke6guj]

Bit of an update, fouund a best-case scenario, the gun I wanted at a fair price at a local dealer. I was dissapointed when I went to the LGS that usually gets my buisness (to the tune of $3000 in the last 3 months) and they wouldn't budge on the transfer fees. To reiterate, I have no problem paying a fair percentage (I'd gladly pay $80+DROS to transfer a $1000 purchase), but I do have a problem paying $50+DROS to transfer a $200 one.

Maybe I'm being naieve, but I run a $16mil a year buisness and if I were in your shoes I'd charge based on percentage, get more for the big purchases and keep the smaller ones happy.

back in the day, I had 2 FFL's that I used for transfers. One charged 10% of the invoice price as his fee and the other charged a flat transfer fee (IIRC it was around $30-40. What that meant is that all my cheap transfers, such as lowers went through FFL#1. would cost me $10 to get a stripped AR lower. But anything worth more than $3-400 went through FFL#2.

[DiogiDoc]

I understand that there is work that needs to be done by the FFL to document an out of state transfer (or in state) and agree that a reasonable fee is reasonable. I do not understand the FFLs that are charging additional fees ($50-75) for PPT transfers. Many (while there are few FFLs) seem to be doing this in Santa Barbara County and my understanding is this is illegal. I would rather support my local, but I am not going to pay $75-100 total for a PPT just because there are no local competitors.

[kemasa]

A PPT is where both the buyer and seller go to the FFL. The total fee is limited to $35, so if a FFL is charging more than that, then they are violating the law.

Many people incorrectly call an Internet purchase a PPT. An out of state transfer is NOT a PPT.

The subject regarding fees come up quite often and part of the problem is that customers don't know all the time, effort and cost is involved in the complete transaction. Perhaps FFLs should offer to do the transfer on an hourly basis for the total time it takes to do the transfer, including sending their FFL, receiving, unpacking, logging, and storing the firearm, getting all the required paperwork together, contacting the customer, getting the firearm out, doing all the paperwork, storing the firearm again, finishing the paperwork, logging the transaction, getting rid of all the shipping materials that came with the firearm, doing all the accounting for the income and sales tax, etc. So, in order to do this, what hourly rate would you consider to be acceptable?

[Smoke&Rattler]

What are you talking about? Isn't DROS only a CA thing? Most states just go through NICS which has no charge.

Rude huh? Anyways, NICS charge then. Bottom line, it's less. No

Help?

California
$25 DROS
$35 FFL mark up
$60 out of state transfer
* 10 day wait
--

Other states
$0 DROS
$7 NICS
$7 FFL mark up
* no wait in most states
--

[DiogiDoc]

A PPT is where both the buyer and seller go to the FFL. The total fee is limited to $35, so if a FFL is charging more than that, then they are violating the law.

Many people incorrectly call an Internet purchase a PPT. An out of state transfer is NOT a PPT.

The subject regarding fees come up quite often and part of the problem is that customers don't know all the time, effort and cost is involved in the complete transaction. Perhaps FFLs should offer to do the transfer on an hourly basis for the total time it takes to do the transfer, including sending their FFL, receiving, unpacking, logging, and storing the firearm, getting all the required paperwork together, contacting the customer, getting the firearm out, doing all the paperwork, storing the firearm again, finishing the paperwork, logging the transaction, getting rid of all the shipping materials that came with the firearm, doing all the accounting for the income and sales tax, etc. So, in order to do this, what hourly rate would you consider to be acceptable?

See this thread concerning illegal PPTs.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=619680

[kemasa]

Yes and what is your point? What does it say at the start that someone should do about it? If you do nothing, then nothing will change. If you complain and take actions, then those FFLs will either follow the law or be shut down.

[Colonel Monk]

A PPT is where both the buyer and seller go to the FFL. The total fee is limited to $35, so if a FFL is charging more than that, then they are violating the law.

Many people incorrectly call an Internet purchase a PPT. An out of state transfer is NOT a PPT.

The subject regarding fees come up quite often and part of the problem is that customers don't know all the time, effort and cost is involved in the complete transaction. Perhaps FFLs should offer to do the transfer on an hourly basis for the total time it takes to do the transfer, including sending their FFL, receiving, unpacking, logging, and storing the firearm, getting all the required paperwork together, contacting the customer, getting the firearm out, doing all the paperwork, storing the firearm again, finishing the paperwork, logging the transaction, getting rid of all the shipping materials that came with the firearm, doing all the accounting for the income and sales tax, etc. So, in order to do this, what hourly rate would you consider to be acceptable?

This is very well put and that's basically what it takes to do the transfer. And if you don't have a large vault room, there's quite a bit of shuffling the smaller FFL needs to do to get guns out of the safe. Might seem insignificant but it all adds up, especially when you need to pay an employee to do it.

Regarding the PPT transfer, yeah, it's very well spelled out on DOJ website what can be charged. FFL basically does this service as "payment" to DOJ for having a license, because the $10 bucks the FFL makes doesn't cover the time it takes to do a PPT, even though there's no logging or safekeeping or shipping cartons to deal with.

I can only imagine the DOJ has set the legal amount so low as to discourage people from getting into the FFL business for the sole purpose of doing firearms transfers. DOJ seems to do all they can to discourage anyone from becoming an FFL. If you could make money doing transfers they'd have that many more folks applying for FFLs as a part-time job. Not that it's a bad thing - just saying the more FFLs the more work they have to do.

As far as the FFL charging $60 for PPT - shame on him, but shame on you for not asking prior to shipping the gun there to make sure. I disagree with his practice, but I'm not sure getting the guy in trouble is the answer.

Per my post above, put yourself in his shoes. $10 for a PPT is loser for his business as it does not pay for the time required, no matter how easy you think it is. So he tries to charge you what he thinks he needs to make it worth his while, as he's trying to discourage you from taking up his time with this losing operation.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that what the DOJ does isn't right, and it causes some FFLs to do what's not right.

So you complain to the DOJ and get the guy's license revoked. If you live in a town with few gun shops, all you've done is hurt yourself, because now you have nowhere to buy your ammo or actually put your hands on that new pistol you wanted to try out before you buy it online.

CM

[kemasa]

...
I can only imagine the DOJ has set the legal amount so low as to discourage people from getting into the FFL business for the sole purpose of doing firearms transfers. DOJ seems to do all they can to discourage anyone from becoming an FFL. If you could make money doing transfers they'd have that many more folks applying for FFLs as a part-time job. Not that it's a bad thing - just saying the more FFLs the more work they have to do.

I suspect the reason for the low amount is that people are forced to go through a FFL and making it a high amount would make it unreasonable. The DOJ should reduce the DROS fee for a PPT, but they don't want to reduce their money. Another option is to get a form and mail it in or submit it by a web page, then the DOJ could send the person a response saying that they can transfer it.

The bottom line is that the government does not want to make it easy on anyone.

As far as the FFL charging $60 for PPT - shame on him, but shame on you for not asking prior to shipping the gun there to make sure. I disagree with his practice, but I'm not sure getting the guy in trouble is the answer.

The FFL is not following the law, so the FFL is the one who is causing the trouble, not someone who is being ripped off by the FFL.

Also, it was a PPT, so no firearm was being shipped, according to what was posted.

[tonyxcom]

See this thread concerning illegal PPTs.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=619680

Thanks, I have a migrane now.