FBI AGENT = NOT LEO in CA

[rbetts]

Just had an interesting situation here where an FBI agent asked to purchase Hi Cap mags from us. No big deal, let me copy your Peace officer card with photo ID and DL and you are good to go!

"No I cannot let you copy my FBI ID, its a federal offense! Here is my Business card instead. My other shop doesn't have a problem with the way I do it"

End result, no Hi-Cap sales without proper documentation. Unfortunately, I wasn't going to stick my hi-cap permit out there for his interpretation of the law.

This made me do some research. CA does not consider FBI agents as LEO's per Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 of the penal code. They have arrest powers, but are not LEO.

So they get no special treatment from the Hi Cap law. Bummer, as I hate to turn away a good customer.

Anybody else have experience with this?

[Ubermcoupe]

Weird...

830.8. (a) Federal criminal investigators and law enforcement
officers are not California peace officers, but may exercise the
powers of arrest of a peace officer in any of the following
circumstances: ...

[Bobula]

Odd...

[223556]

Maybe its a CA thing....
JK
That is pretty odd.

[Paul Pechner]

According to the penal codes, it would seem okay to sell them to federal law enforcement:

32310. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section
32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, commencing January 1, 2000, any
person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured,
imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for
sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine is
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or
in the state prison.

32400. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale of, giving of,
lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any
large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and
county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any
law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official
duties, whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by
the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.

[ryang]

Just had an interesting situation here where an FBI agent asked to purchase Hi Cap mags from us. No big deal, let me copy your Peace officer card with photo ID and DL and you are good to go!

Not only does CPC 32400 indicate feds are good to go, I'm not aware of any legal requirement that you need to make a copy of any IDs. You may have a store policy but it's not required by law.

[tbhracing]

Re-read post #1 again. It wasn't a matter of being an LEO, the Officer just did not want to give his issued ID which I think is a state-wide standard. It all came down to the decision made by the FBI dude.

[Rogue187]

It is against Federal Law to copy any Federal Credential..It is listed under 18 USC..the exact section eludes me at this moment.
You are allowed to view it and make note that it is a valid Federal Credential.
All that is required is that you note that on the paperwork..along with the identification number.
Also Federal Employees who's main job is law enforcement are not in the penal code section you mentioned..830, they are listed under Section 830.8 (A) and (B)

[rbetts]

As a seller of High Capacity Magazines, I am required to document all transactions both incoming and outgoing. I have to provide documentation as to LEO sales and the legal disposition of high cap mags up to and include those that are "converted to low cpacity magazines".
What other way is there to do this other than the photocopy?

I certainly am not going to take the officer's word that "they" are good to go. Certainly will not fly in a DOJ audit. Ever been through one? I have and having ZERO exceptions and a continuing business operation is extremely important to me.

So who else has a better idea that flys with the DOJ other than "i said so"??

[rbetts]

It is against Federal Law to copy any Federal Credential..It is listed under 18 USC..the exact section eludes me at this moment.
You are allowed to view it and make note that it is a valid Federal Credential.
All that is required is that you note that on the paperwork..along with the identification number.
Also Federal Employees who's main job is law enforcement are not in the penal code section you mentioned..830, they are listed under Section 830.8 (A) and (B)

Here is the section you quoted: Still not LEO's in CA's Definition:

830.8. (a) Federal criminal investigators and law enforcement
officers are not California peace officers, but may exercise the
powers of arrest of a peace officer in any of the following
circumstances:

And

(b) Duly authorized federal employees who comply with the training
requirements set forth in Section 832 are peace officers when they
are engaged in enforcing applicable state or local laws on property
owned or possessed by the United States government, or on any street,
sidewalk, or property adjacent thereto, and with the written consent
of the sheriff or the chief of police, respectively, in whose
jurisdiction the property is situated.

So following this logic, my shop would have to be on or next to US Gov't property in order for them to be an LEO.

[ke6guj]

As a seller of High Capacity Magazines, I am required to document all transactions both incoming and outgoing. I have to provide documentation as to LEO sales and the legal disposition of high cap mags up to and include those that are "converted to low cpacity magazines".
What other way is there to do this other than the photocopy?

I certainly am not going to take the officer's word that "they" are good to go. Certainly will not fly in a DOJ audit. Ever been through one? I have and having ZERO exceptions and a continuing business operation is extremely important to me.

So who else has a better idea that flys with the DOJ other than "i said so"??

well, I would point to this FAQ that talks about documenting federal credentials for the HSC exemption.

It is illegal to photocopy federal credentials. How do I retain a copy of the proof of exemption documentation for individuals with federal credentials?
For individuals with federal credentials record the person's name, federal agency, and credential number rather than photocopying the credentials.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hscfaqs#c4

If that is acceptable for the HSC exemption, it should be acceptable for other places where federal credentials are being used as an exemption.


now, I will let others confirm whether an FBI agent falls under the LEO large cap exemption, but if it is, all you need to do is document the info on his credentials, no photocopy required.

[tenpercentfirearms]

As a seller of High Capacity Magazines, I am required to document all transactions both incoming and outgoing. I have to provide documentation as to LEO sales and the legal disposition of high cap mags up to and include those that are "converted to low cpacity magazines".
What other way is there to do this other than the photocopy?

Can you cite where this requirement is at?

The only thing I can find that requires you to track all dispositions of a large capacity magazine is a DOJ flier.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/CLlcmpapp.pdf

However, I can see no justification for such a thing in the penal code.

32315. Upon a showing that good cause exists, the Department of
Justice may issue permits for the possession, transportation, or sale
between a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915,
inclusive, and an out-of-state client, of large-capacity magazines.

This only requires you to get a permit for importation and exportation.

However, PC 32410 states you don't need a permit to buy or sell magazines.

32410. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale or purchase of any
large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to
Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.

The first paper I linked to states that,

Large Capacity Magazine permittees will be required to maintain acquisition and disposition records for all large capacity magazines they purchase, import or export. The records must be maintained at the dealership location for three years and upon request, be made available to law enforcement.

Yet, if you read the CCR 5483 it states,

Permittees shall maintain acquisition and disposition transaction re-
cords of the importation and exportation of large capacity magazines. Re-
cords shall include transaction date, transaction volume; and the name,
address, and Federal Firearms License number (if any) of the out of state
transferee or transferor. Records must be maintained at the dealership for
three years and be made available to representatives of the Department
of Justice or any other law enforcement agency upon request.
NOTE: Authority cited: Section 12079, Penal Code. Reference: Section 12079, Pe-
nal Code.

Note the CCR only requires acquisition and disposition record keeping for import and export.

I do not keep records of anything for large capacity magazines other than importation and exportation. I further do not keep copies of anyone's IDs for sale or purchase.

[kajvid]

It wasn't this yahoo was it?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/05/12/national/a193306D84.DTL&tsp=1

[RickD427]

According to the penal codes, it would seem okay to sell them to federal law enforcement:

32310. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section
32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, commencing January 1, 2000, any
person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured,
imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for
sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine is
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or
in the state prison.

32400. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale of, giving of,
lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any
large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and
county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any
law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official
duties, whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by
the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.

Paul,

I believe that you may be mistaken here. Section 32400 permits the sale of large-capacity magazines to a federal agency. It does not permit the sale of large-capacity magazines to the employees of the federal agency. That distinction is also supported by the language "for use by agency employees" in the section. If the intent were to allow sale to the federal employees, the language would say that, and the section would have fewer words.

There was a lively thread a year or so ago about whether federal agents held the status of California peace officers for the purpose of purchasing weapons and magazines. Penal Code section 830.8(a) squarely answers that question in the negative.

The terms "peace officer" and "LEO" are not synonymous. California statutes provide "peace officers" with certain special treatment for weapons and magazine acquisition. "LEO's" get no special treatment.

That's not to slight federal agents. Their authorities are defined in the U.S. Code and the prerogatives needed by them to perform their duties are granted by the U.S. Code.

[Yaki]

All I can say is he got to see first hand the silly hoops we have to go thru..