collecting tax

[Brian1979]

As I understand it I am going to now pay tax on my incoming gun since it was purchased from a dealer and ordered by them through the manufacture.

I would love to find a way around this and not have to pay just as it were before but it seems the time has come and that loop hole is now closed.

My question is about when the tax money is collected by the FFL. What is to say they dont just take the money and keep it? I just dont trust how this is going down and it seems so ghetto to just figure a price on the gun and multiply that to the local tax rate then ask me to hand the money over. How will the FFL determine a price if the receipt is sent to me? Can the dealer just send a receipt for a lesser price or is that crossing some lines that I dont want to mess with? How can I be sure I am not getting ripped off and that the FFL doesnt just pocket my money?

Dont get me wrong in asking this. I dont intend to come off like a scum bag but I dont intend to give the IRS every last penny either. I pay plenty of taxes and figure that the sale occurred out of state so this rule is BS but realize there is nothing I can do to change it. Simply because a FFL is required to transfer the gun is how this is even possible vs any other type of online transaction which doesnt collect tax if not bought and sent with in that state. This seems like an all to easy task to collect and obviously why its been done. It is what it is and I have to accept it but I want to be sure I am not getting screwed and that I full understand what is going on here.

If there is a way around all this please PM me some info and educate me before going through the process. Please give me some info to educate me on the matter so I am not taken advantage of and am assured my money gets sent to the IRS. In other words should I pay the tax on credit card or by some other means then cash to protect myself?

Thanks

[dctex99]

How do you know Walmart doesn't pocket the money; How do you know the bar where you pay CASH doesn't pocket the money(some do) You are dealing with people that HAVE to keep records that can be audited at any time!!!! Use some common sense; the state gets the money AND the state NEEDS the money!!!!!!!!!

[keenkeen]

AND the state NEEDS the money!!!!!!!!!

We will just have to agree to disagree on that one...

[tenpercentfirearms]

This has been hashed out ad nauseum.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=366781

You have no guarantees that anyone that collects sales tax is going to actually send it to the BOE. Do you worry about everyone you pay tax to whether they are actually sending it in or not? If not, then why an FFL? What is it about FFLs that make you think they are more likely to pocket the money?

Further if the FFL pockets the money and doesn't give it to the state, how exactly are you getting screwed? That money comes out of your pocket if it goes to the BOE or if it goes into the dealer's pocket (which is a criminal act and subject to some serious consequences). If you are so concerned about the state taking your money and trying to get around sending them your money, I would think you would be happy that a dealer steals it from the state and buys more guns with it.

Personally if some local store is stealing my tax dollars, it wouldn't bother me any. They will get caught eventually and they will be punished for it. I am not sure how that measly tax money could be worth years in jail over, but I don't care. Once I give the money to them, it is gone.

As a retail sales permit holder, I can't think of anything stupider than keeping your sales tax dollars. First of all there is a huge audit trail. My point of sale system tracks what I take in and what I pay to them. If I just took the money, in an audit they are going to figure it out right away.

So to try and cover my tracks, I would have to try and alter my POS sales receipts. Again, a horrible idea because there doesn't appear to be a way to actually erase receipts, they are always tracked even if canceled. In fact if I did that, then it would be an even easier trail for the BOE to follow by just looking at all of my canceled transactions (there aren't that many).

If a customer ever suspected me of stealing sales tax, they could simply report it and then hand their receipts over to the BOE and tell them to check it. Again, not that difficult.

So again, why would an FFL want to do this? How would the benefit be worth the risk?

Good luck with your sales tax witch hunt. You pay so many people for sales tax, you are going to need all the help you can get with that paranoia.

[bubbapug1]

As I understand it I am going to now pay tax on my incoming gun since it was purchased from a dealer and ordered by them through the manufacture.

I would love to find a way around this and not have to pay just as it were before but it seems the time has come and that loop hole is now closed.

My question is about when the tax money is collected by the FFL. What is to say they dont just take the money and keep it? I just dont trust how this is going down and it seems so ghetto to just figure a price on the gun and multiply that to the local tax rate then ask me to hand the money over. How will the FFL determine a price if the receipt is sent to me? Can the dealer just send a receipt for a lesser price or is that crossing some lines that I dont want to mess with? How can I be sure I am not getting ripped off and that the FFL doesnt just pocket my money?

Dont get me wrong in asking this. I dont intend to come off like a scum bag

Why would ANYONE get the impression from your thread you were even remotely a scumbag????

[Shoobee]

I help businesses collect and pay their sales taxes to the various states every month.

The states have various means to track down corporate tax cheats and collect their sales taxes with penalites (10%) and interest (4%/yr) thereon.

I would not worry about a business collecting their consumer taxes and remitting them to the states. The states are good at sniffing out cheats.

[Munk]

You already owed the tax in the first place, you probably just never claimed your out-of-state purchases on your tax form. The state just put the onus of paying the tax on the FFL, then allowed the FFL to collect the tax from the consumer. Tax dodging has brought down some big people, and CA is rather good at finding tax problems. If you cheat your way out of sales tax at the FFL, you may be condemning that store. Do you really want to do that?

I help businesses collect and pay their sales taxes to the various states every month.

The states have various means to track down corporate tax cheats and collect their sales taxes with penalites (10%) and interest (4%/yr) thereon.

I would not worry about a business collecting their consumer taxes and remitting them to the states. The states are good at sniffing out cheats.

CA is so good with penalties, that less than 1 month after an income tax error was discovered on my form, I owed a penalty... I paid. 2 weeks later, I get a second bill for the interest that accrued on my "debt" for the few weeks that I "owed" them for the penalty and difference in tax amounts.

We will just have to agree to disagree on that one...

Heh, the state (like the feds) need to start slashing budgets and eliminating wasteful spending. I detest the way the government has turned deficit spending into an acceptable practice.

[Shoobee]

If you had a chance to go to college, and to take any econ courses, and you paid attention and read the book(s), and you still can remember any of it, then you would recall that during the depths of a really deep recession is NOT the time to "cut deficits."

I know I know, Boener repeats all the time that it should be done. Like a broken record. It's a pity that so many people actually believe him. I am sure he stands in front of the mirror every night when he gets home and laughs, thinking about how may people he fooled on any given day.

[Dingoguns]

I would love to find a way around this and not have to pay just as it were before but it seems the time has come and that loop hole is now closed.

There never was a loophole; you have always been expected to pay tax on all out of state purchases. You simply haven't been doing so, which is a violation of the tax code.

Basically, what it comes down to is that the BOE is now forcing us FFL's to enforce tax code on out of state transactions, something that really shouldn't be our problem. I don't want the responsibility, and I'm sure that a fair number of other dealers feel the same way.

Perhaps instead of complaining about the extra +/-10% you now have to pay when buying a firearm from out of state (and did I mention, should have been paying on every purchase?), you should be thanking those of us who do collect tax for helping you stay out of jail.

[Brian1979]

My concern is that when you purchase something in a store they sold it to me and the selling price is listed along with the tax owed. In this FFL situation I never bought the gun from them and they have no idea what it cost other then looking the gun up online which still isnt accurate to what I paid. This to means that it should be very easy of them to collect tax on one amount and then later lower that amount on their records and keep a portion of the money.

I pay a hell of a lot taxes so dont give me crap. This is something that concerns me because of the way it is setup not because I have to actually pay it. I would much rather report what I buy myself and pay up directly then to trust the system set in place with the FFL right now.

At this point if tax is due I am fine with that but I wish it were collected by the person actually selling the gun. The way it is setup now just welcomes fraud.

[tenpercentfirearms]

My concern is that when you purchase something in a store they sold it to me and the selling price is listed along with the tax owed. In this FFL situation I never bought the gun from them and they have no idea what it cost other then looking the gun up online which still isnt accurate to what I paid. This to means that it should be very easy of them to collect tax on one amount and then later lower that amount on their records and keep a portion of the money.

I pay a hell of a lot taxes so dont give me crap. This is something that concerns me because of the way it is setup not because I have to actually pay it. I would much rather report what I buy myself and pay up directly then to trust the system set in place with the FFL right now.

At this point if tax is due I am fine with that but I wish it were collected by the person actually selling the gun. The way it is setup now just welcomes fraud.

Again, if you have a POS receipt from me saying you paid $72.50 in tax on a $1000 purchase, I have to go back and cancel that receipt and change it to a lesser amount. That leaves a paper trail a mile long. So what am I going to change it to? $500? So I get $36.25 to put in my pocket. Man, that is so worth getting busted over. What a great idea, I am going to jump right on that. The BOE would never question why a Benelli M2 was only $500.

Further, when you give the FFL a receipt that shows what you paid, how does that FFL make your receipt go away? They generate a new one? Again, this is a lot of work for $36.25 with a whole lot of consequences if I get caught. And again in an audit, a simple checking with the shipping FFL will show the FFL has been cheating the system. Not paying your sales tax out of ignorance is one thing, actively committing tax evasion is another.

So it is put up or shut up time. Do you actually have any proof that any FFL is actually cheating their taxes? Is there actual documented evidence that this is a serious concern other than in your mind?

Again in the end, your logic is flawed as well. You are required to pay the tax either way. So that money will leave your hands and go somewhere. You are concerned you are going to get cheated. You will not get cheated. The tax payers will get cheated. Something you were just asking if you could get away with at the start of the very thread.

If I were into reading between the lines, it would appear to me that you actually are really upset you can't cheat your taxes anymore. How many of your out of state retail purchases did you actually claim in previous years? I am willing to bet zero.

Life is too short to worry about whether other people are following the law or not. Well to me anyway. I know where my integrity and honor stands, but even if I wasn't sure, I sure as hell wouldn't cheat the BOE in a highly regulated industry like firearms sales where everything is tracked through multiple governmental agencies.

For those of you who think FFLs are all dirty and want to steal your tax money, relax. We do not make tax law and we didn't ask to collect sales tax on out of state purchases. Getting all huffy and puffy and going after FFLs over this is silly. We are stuck complying with the law just like you. Personally, paying the sales tax at the FFL and having a receipt that shows it was paid seems a lot easier than having to file it on your taxes at the end of the year. Unless of course you weren't planning on filing it on your taxes at the end of the year. But who does that make a fraudster and tax cheat?

[Brian1979]

I am talking several hundred here not $36. We are clearly on different pages here so instead of accusing back and forth I will simply thank you for the info you provided.

[Shoobee]

Usually when a business "steals" tax money it is because they are running out of cash.

When that happens, it is then a race between the IRS and the State to take over the business and then shut it down.

Usually the IRS wins.

[keenkeen]

If you had a chance to go to college, and to take any econ courses, and you paid attention and read the book(s), and you still can remember any of it, then you would recall that during the depths of a really deep recession is NOT the time to "cut deficits."

I know I know, Boener repeats all the time that it should be done. Like a broken record. It's a pity that so many people actually believe him. I am sure he stands in front of the mirror every night when he gets home and laughs, thinking about how may people he fooled on any given day.

Eliminating wasteful government spending does not hurt the economy, in fact many many economists would argue just the opposite. Of course you may believe there is no waste to be cut in the California budget.

Also, you may want to pull out those college econ books and review your notes. Per the accepted definition of "recession" we are currently not in one and are certainly not in "a really deep recession".

Knowledge is power...

[kemasa]

Can the dealer just send a receipt for a lesser price or is that crossing some lines that I dont want to mess with?

Why would you want to put the FFL through that? I just recently had to deal with that because the dealer sent a false receipt. It might have been a mistake, but it really does not matter to me why. The FFL should refuse to do the transfer if they find out and then you are going to have real problems. In my case, the FFL called the CA DOJ to complain, so I had to explain the situation to the DOJ, which I did not care for, but what I thought was funny was that the person at the DOJ told me that they told the other FFL that due to the sales tax issues I could turn the firearms over to the local police and then the shipping FFL could deal with what results. It is hard to say what would happen and if the firearms would ever get returned anywhere. It is also possible to hold the firearms, such as a mechanics lien, including storage charges.

I also have a section in my customer agreement in which you lose all rights in the firearm if you attempt this. While it might not be upheld in court, it just might be, are you willing to take that risk? I am since even if I lose, I don't have to transfer the firearm to you and there is the concept of "dirty hands". A nice countersuit for expenses and time would also be in order.

So, as much as I hate the waste in government and as much as I don't want to have to collect the sales tax, I am not about to put myself at risk for you, especially considering that the FFL gets nothing out of it other than a huge risk. You might also consider what the end result of a tax evasion charge would be.

So, the bottom line is don't play games, don't put the FFL in the middle, save sales tax money by finding a good deal, not by breaking the law. Get people out to vote and try to restore the government to one of for and by the PEOPLE, not the politicians (take away all the government vehicles from them and let them buy their own vehicles like the rest of us, which will save a lot of money).