home based 01FFL???

[bebe67]

Just got a call from zoning and my permit for retail sales of firearms was approved for my home base business. AJUA!!!!!!

[bebe67]

Your welcome to use it just put your info in.

[IrishPirate]

^^wow, looks like you covered your bases pretty well. What city are you in?

[bebe67]

THIS IS THE LETTER I SHOT OFF TO THE CITY TODAY AND I REMOVED NAMES TO PROTECT MYSELF,

Dear Mr. Patlan,

I am writing in response to a phone conversation with one of The City City Hall employee on 02/1/2011 regarding my city permit that I filed for a home office business for the sale of firearms. This is my business model for more clarity. Please review California Penal Code 12070 and 12071 http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12070.php and how these Articles apply to my virtual (internet) business. These two sections fit my business model perfectly and verifies my intentions to run a virtual internet business utilizing a Federal Firearms License. As both codes state an individual or group may not conduct business without a Federal Firearms License. I have applied for my Certificate of Eligibility with the California Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms. I currently hold a Federal Firearms License 03 which is a collector of Curio and Relics Federal Firearms License and not able to deal with this Federal Firearms license and this is why I am applying for a dealer’s license to establish a business and provide for my family. A City Business License is the most important part of this process because without the city permit, The State of California will not allow a person to deal in firearms. Once I receive the business license I can proceed with applying for the dealer’s license and once approved I will be in full compliance and accuracy of Articles 12070 and 12071 and any other additional requirements set forth by the Federal Government and State of California as required by all FFL holders and California Certificate of Eligibility holders.

A first step in conducting our internet business is establishing my business name Armory with The City and my intent to operate an internet business. This is critical because part of the application process for a Federal Firearms License according to the ATF “TO RECEIVE A LICENSE AS A DEALER, IMPORTER, OR MANUFACTURER OF FIREARMS, YOU MUST INTEND TO ENGAGE IN A FIREARMS BUSINESS.” I fully intend to engage in the Internet business and participate in local Gun Shows utilizing my Federal Firearms License, Certificate of Eligibility from the State of California and Business License for Gun Shows all within compliance of Articles 12070 and 12071.

12070. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
12071. (a)(1) As used in this chapter, the term “license,” “person licensed pursuant to section 12071,” or regulatory or business license, or licenses required by local government. (C) A valid seller’s permit issued by the State Board of Equalization. (D) A Certificate of Eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4). (E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6). (F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e). (2) The duly constituted licensing authority of a city, county , or a city and county shall accept applications for, and may grant licenses permitting, licensees to sell firearms at retail within the city, county or city and county. The duly constituted licensing authority shall inform applicants who are denied licenses of the reason for the denial in writing. (3) No license shall be granted to any applicant who fails to provide a copy of his or her valid firearms license, valid sellers permit issued by the State Board of Equalization, and the certificate of eligibility described above.
Mr. Patlan your hesitancy in issuing my permit seems to be focused on the fact that I am the first to have applied for this type of license in The City . The requirement for the city permit to state retail sales of firearms from my home address is required to receive my Federal Firearms License but the United States Code also provides definitions, and exceptions, that will allow me to obtain my FFL, without ever conducting retail sales, physically at my residence located at Just like I stated on my city permit application (Online Sales).

The Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms issuance of my FFL license is wholly separate and apart from my Home Business Permit. I also wanted to note, that I will comply 100% with the requirements of The City , to obtain my business license permit.
As an FFL license holder is permitted to conduct business away from his or her licensed location at gun shows within the state where FFL license is held.
As I mentioned I will be conducting business online and at gun shows and The United States Code provides, and the ATF views the gun show as an extension of my business location. Please see exert below from the federal regulations issued by the ATF governing the FFL license holder. Federal Regulations, ATF part 478-Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition.
Section 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises. (a) (1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided that such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. (emphasis added) Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations.
However, licensees shall comply with comply with the provisions of section 478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.
Additionally, if you review the ATF’s legal definition of a “dealer” below, or FFL Licensee, you will find no mention of, or requirement of retail sales or required retail space or commercially zoned business to obtain or maintain an FFL License. Please see exert below from the federal regulations issued by the ATF governing the FFL license holder, Gun Control Act 18 U.S.C.

Chapter 44
Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker.
The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part time basis.
The term “dealer” is defined at 18 U.S.C. section 921.(a)(11)(A) to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail. The term “engaged” in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A dealer can be “engaged in the business” without taking title to the firearm that are sold.
I hope this letter better clarifies your concerns and my business model is to sell firearms at gun shows, and online plus I would be able to supply our police department with weapons at a wholesale cost and savings to the citizens of . My legal counsel and I thoroughly reviewed the Federal ATF laws governing FFL dealers, and also thoroughly reviewed state laws and we are confident my business fully adheres to the requirements of The City of , federal and state laws. This is the same information I will provide to ATF during my on site interview, after which they will make their decision, as it relates to my application for a FFL.
These same issues have appeared from time to time, and have been resolved according to the sections of the United States Code that I have provided.
Thanks again for allowing me this opportunity to clarify my business model, and business operations, as well as, provide you the current law, as it relates to this matter. I would respectfully request that my Business License permit specifying “Retail sales of Firearms” be approved, so I can move on to the next application process, at your earliest convenience.

Very truly yours,

[Rigmarole]

It's a great question. I don't know how any of the home base FFL do it from the house and have "walk-in" traffic in a residential area? 99.9% of the cities don't allow this. Someone care to share how they do the transfers with people coming over?

This works just like the grandma down the street giving piano lessons out of her home. She sees one client at a time and they come in by appointment only. It is the same thing with transfers.

Most cities also have rules restricting business signage, on street parking, delivery trucks larger than a standard delivery van, etc. for home-based businesses.

[halifax]

It's a great question. I don't know how any of the home base FFL do it from the house and have "walk-in" traffic in a residential area? 99.9% of the cities don't allow this. Someone care to share how they do the transfers with people coming over?

For the most part, it's not a steady stream of unexpected customers like a B&M store. One or two people a day, maybe, for me and I know when they are coming because we have been in communication. From the outside, it looks less suspicious than the crackhouse down the street.

[D4ZORT]

It's a great question. I don't know how any of the home base FFL do it from the house and have "walk-in" traffic in a residential area? 99.9% of the cities don't allow this. Someone care to share how they do the transfers with people coming over?

[Rigmarole]

looks like the administrative permit wouldn't be impossible to obtain, but what bothers me is this:


it looks like Roseville wont let you conduct any FFL business from your home, but perhaps the key word there is "sales". Do transfers count as sales?? I would think no since it's not something from your inventory, but if the sale happened in my house, then i guess it would be a grey area...

I definitely don't think that it would work out very well in my current house, but if i move I'll keep all this in mind. Or perhaps i'll try to find a REALLY small store front

It sounds like you are out of luck. I don't think the ATF is going to look at those local rules and still issue you a license.

[Rudolf the Red]

I went to gun shows with a few guns for sale, talked my *** off and gave out hundreds of business cards. All my business is from those cards and referrals. I have a couple customers a month after 3.5 years. I have one customer that has resulted in four new customers just from his mouth. Together, they have bought 11 guns so far. Just from one business card last March. I am moving soon and may have to give up my business. Finding a landlord favorable to an FFL is not easy.

[GoingQuiet]

ATF requires inventory in order to get your FFL. You'd need to sell stuff as well. Biggest hurdle is your city.

I don't think this is the case. ATF requires you to run a business, it does not stipulate that you have to have inventory.

I can tell you when I started out, I had nothing.

[IrishPirate]

The ATF will check to make sure you are not violating any legal prohibitions that would prevent you from conducting business at your location. For our home-based FFL, they did look to make sure we didn't have an HOA that would have prohibited a home-based business.

After doing some research, we have found that the safest way to go with credit card processing is through Payment Alliance. They are actually the NRA and NSSF endorsed merchant processor. With anyone else, you may be taking a risk.

Getting listed as a transfer dealer is easy once you have your 01 FFL. We get most of our transfers that aren't referrals or repeat customers from Gunbroker.

Also, five minutes of looking into the Roseville city business license rules tells me that you are already going to have some problems. The ATF requires that you conduct your business at your licensed premises (and allows it at gun shows as well). Roseville will not allow you to operate a home-based business where customers come to the house without a seperate "Administrative Permit" which involves a public hearing. What will your neighbors have to say about you opening a gun business in the neighborhood?

Start here and dig deeper on your own:

http://www.roseville.ca.us/ed/business_assistance/how_to_guides.asp#home

It still may be possible, but it looks like you have some hurdles ahead. Good luck.

looks like the administrative permit wouldn't be impossible to obtain, but what bothers me is this:

Limitation on Use
Home Occupations shall be permitted in a dwelling, so long as the maximum cumulative impact of all such businesses shall not exceed the limits set forth in this Section for a single Home Occupation. The following uses or activities are prohibited as Home Occupations:


Fire arms and ammunition sales;
Kennel services;
Retail or wholesale sales with transfer of products to the buyer at the residential site. The operation of a Home Occupation shall not necessitate the rendering of services, merchandise sales, or distribution of merchandise to customers or clients on the premises, with the exception of private instruction;
Vehicle or vehicle body, repair or painting; or
Any use or activity that affects the character of the surrounding residential neighborhood by generating more noise, odors, vehicles, storage, or traffic than would be normally expected in a residential zone.

it looks like Roseville wont let you conduct any FFL business from your home, but perhaps the key word there is "sales". Do transfers count as sales?? I would think no since it's not something from your inventory, but if the sale happened in my house, then i guess it would be a grey area...

I definitely don't think that it would work out very well in my current house, but if i move I'll keep all this in mind. Or perhaps i'll try to find a REALLY small store front

[Rigmarole]

The ATF will check to make sure you are not violating any legal prohibitions that would prevent you from conducting business at your location. For our home-based FFL, they did look to make sure we didn't have an HOA that would have prohibited a home-based business.

After doing some research, we have found that the safest way to go with credit card processing is through Payment Alliance. They are actually the NRA and NSSF endorsed merchant processor. With anyone else, you may be taking a risk.

Getting listed as a transfer dealer is easy once you have your 01 FFL. We get most of our transfers that aren't referrals or repeat customers from Gunbroker.

Also, five minutes of looking into the Roseville city business license rules tells me that you are already going to have some problems. The ATF requires that you conduct your business at your licensed premises (and allows it at gun shows as well). Roseville will not allow you to operate a home-based business where customers come to the house without a seperate "Administrative Permit" which involves a public hearing. What will your neighbors have to say about you opening a gun business in the neighborhood?

Start here and dig deeper on your own:

http://www.roseville.ca.us/ed/business_assistance/how_to_guides.asp#home

It still may be possible, but it looks like you have some hurdles ahead. Good luck.

[TheExpertish]

I know the city is the first and probably biggest hurdle, but i want to have my ducks in a row, or at least know what order they should be in, so that if Roseville says OK, i can move on without too much waiting.


Could HOA regulations stop the city/DOJ/ATF issuing me the licenses i need??

Read your HOA, but mostly they don't have any say in what you can and cannot do with a business that is permissible in that city.

Also finding a merchant (credit card) who allows you to sell guns is another issue. I called around and many said no go if you sell firearms.

It can be, but there are plenty out there who do. Also, most don't know what the hell they are talking about.

[ke6guj]

everyone i've talked to has said that credit card companies will give a machine to anyone with a business license since they charge them money to have them. so even if they aren't making sales, they're paying to have the machine. I could probably get around it by going cash/money order only for a while, but a CC machine could end up being a good investment if it turns out that i have more business than expected. we'll just have to see.

they tell you that now, but many gun shops have had their merchant accounts terminated because they sell guns.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/01/citifirst-data-anti-gun-policies-stir-controversy-calls-for-boycott/

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-632882.html

[Santa Cruz Armory]

Because you enjoy staying busy and donating your time. I too used to think I was going to get all of this business because I would work for cheap. When I got all of this business for working for cheap, I realized I actually enjoyed my free time more.

You aren't going to make much money in the gun business. Really the only reason I stick with it is because of all of the little benefits of owning a gun shop. Other than that, there are much more profitable businesses to be in with much, much less paperwork.

Truer words were never spoken...