Failed PPT

[jeep7081]

Well, in this case the buyer wouldn't have much recourse, he used paypal to pay me and its pretty well spelled out in the user agreement that buyer protection does not cover any firearm or ammunition transactions, not to mention that you aren't even supposed to conduct those purchases through paypal, so at best he would just get both of our accounts locked out trying to demand a refund.

I'm not going to give this too much more thought, the rifle will be at my FFL tomorrow, so by Saturday I should know what my out of pocket cost was and offer him the refund, otherwise eff him. He can take me to small claims if he wants, I'm more worried about my reputation being damaged on here with a bad itrader rating than anything else.

This guy pretty much ruined the chances of me ever shipping another firearm for sale, but I will definitely be coming up with a sales agreement for any future FTF transactions that all sales are final regardless of whether or not they do not qualify to own a firearm, and that they can resell it back to me at a reduced price for my inconvenience. (wasted time, cost of fuel, etc)

Your asuming paypal is the only recourse since paypal was used. You would be wrong. Be careful! This is far from the truth. The buyer can call his bank and dispute the charges.

Case in point, I purchased some software online, downloaded it, and it didn't work. I contacted the seller, who said to contact the developer, which never called me back. I disputed it through paypal. After a month I got an email, paypal doesn't guarantee online downloades. I called Paypal, they said to call my bank and dispute it since Paypal didn't cover it. Called my bank, credit was given. Case was closed.

The more I reply to this topic, the more I will make sure I put these terms of condition of sale on my next firearm sale.

We both agree though, no shipping, and an agreement will be added to my next firearms sales

[kemasa]

This guy pretty much ruined the chances of me ever shipping another firearm for sale, but I will definitely be coming up with a sales agreement for any future FTF transactions that all sales are final regardless of whether or not they do not qualify to own a firearm, and that they can resell it back to me at a reduced price for my inconvenience. (wasted time, cost of fuel, etc)

Don't make other suffer due to one bad apple. Just make it clear that there will be no refunds for people who are denied.

[tenpercentfirearms]

The more I reply to this topic, the more I will make sure I put these terms of condition of sale on my next firearm sale.

We both agree though, no shipping, and an agreement will be added to my next firearms sales

That really is the moral of the story. Have your conditions clearly laid out. A simple, "No refunds for failed DROS" will work.

[awall919]

The new owner of the firearm should just contact the FFL ant try to have it sold on consignment in the shop it is being held in. You keep your money he doesnt loose much if any. Iv had numerous issues with different FFLs and would happily take someone to small claims if my money was not refunded under these certain conditions. Iv also seen many DOJ temp denials and FFLs having suspicious thoughts of a firearm buyer, which were false acquisitions. If this is an honest person who got screwed by a FFL, and than you want to take his money on top of that.. yea small claims. The situation sounds like a FFLs fault, not the buyer or seller, unless a straw sale was intended or a denial was given.

[kemasa]

The situation sounds like a FFLs fault, not the buyer or seller, unless a straw sale was intended or a denial was given.

Did you bother to look at the link in post #5? I would guess not. Someone who gives the wrong answer to 11g knows about it and it is not a surprise and nothing the FFL can do, nor can the FFL then agree to transfer the firearm to the person's wife.

[BDH]

I guess I'm still unclear on the concept. If the seller sends his property to a dealer, and the buyer is found to be prohibited, where does it say that the rifle can't be sent back to the original sender? I just read 12070-12086 and my eyes are still a bit crossed. Saw one location not related to this incident where a handgun could be returned if sent for repair or modification. If the DROS is failed, and the rifle still belongs to the original sender, why can't it be returned? Seems like an entry in the dealer log would just say returned to owner without disposition.

Bruce

[kemasa]

Under what basis do you think that it can just be returned to the seller? In the case of a PPT, there is a requirement that it be returned. If you send a firearm in for repair, it can be returned. In this case the firearm was transferred to a FFL. As I understand it, a consignment sale requires a DROS to return the firearm. So, you need to have something which would allow the firearm to be returned, otherwise it has to be transferred back.

[bandook]

Your asuming paypal is the only recourse since paypal was used. You would be wrong. Be careful! This is far from the truth. The buyer can call his bank and dispute the charges.

Case in point, I purchased some software online, downloaded it, and it didn't work. I contacted the seller, who said to contact the developer, which never called me back. I disputed it through paypal. After a month I got an email, paypal doesn't guarantee online downloades. I called Paypal, they said to call my bank and dispute it since Paypal didn't cover it. Called my bank, credit was given. Case was closed.

The more I reply to this topic, the more I will make sure I put these terms of condition of sale on my next firearm sale.

We both agree though, no shipping, and an agreement will be added to my next firearms sales

Your software case is not the same as this situation. In your case there was a violation of an implied warranty (you bought software expecting it to work. You tried to get the issue resolved but it was not. Your money should be refunded).

In this case, there is no implied warranty - so the bank would NOT refund the money. Second, there seems to be an 'illegal purpose' situation here so warranties don't apply.

Or let me ask you a different question - you custom order a gun paying full amount as deposit. Upon time of transfer, it is determined that you are prohibited from owning firearms. Is your bank going to reverse the charge? (No)

[Josh3239]

I had a thing with Irvington Arms, different circumstances but this reminded me of it. They wouldn't return it to me the owner, they would only return it to an FFL and they said if I don't get them an FFL and shipping payment within the next few hours of the call they would give my property to the police. Long story short, I got my legal and registered to me handgun back and those Irvington Arms guys are crooks. Atleast your FFL is willing to return it to you and not turn your property into the police.

Anyways good luck with working it out. I'd take the shipping charges from him if it costs you money if I were you.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I had a thing with Irvington Arms, different circumstances but this reminded me of it. They wouldn't return it to me the owner, they would only return it to an FFL and they said if I don't get them an FFL and shipping payment within the next few hours of the call they would give my property to the police. Long story short, I got my legal and registered to me handgun back and those Irvington Arms guys are crooks. Atleast your FFL is willing to return it to you and not turn your property into the police.

Anyways good luck with working it out. I'd take the shipping charges from him if it costs you money if I were you.

If you ship or hand over your firearm to an FFL for any reason other than repair or service, it must be DROSed back to you. So if Irvington Arms returned the firearm directly back to you after you sent it to them for transfer, they violated the law.

However, unless they had a local ordinance that says otherwise, they had no authority to transfer it to the police either. That would be the last thing I would do. I would start charging storage fees and once they add up to the cost of the firearm I would just keep the firearm. Giving guns to the police is the worst thing I could think of doing.

It looks like PC 12073 is where we do not have to submit DROS.

12073. (a) As required by the Department of Justice, every dealer shall keep a register or record of electronic or telephonic transfer in which shall be entered the information prescribed in Section 12077.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following transactions:
(1) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun by a dealer to another dealer upon proof of compliance with the requirements of paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072.
((2) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to another dealer if that firearm is intended as merchandise in the receiving dealer's business upon proof of compliance with the requirements of paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072.
(3) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a person licensed as an importer or manufacturer pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and any regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer who sells, transfers, or delivers the firearm to a person who resides outside this state who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and any regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(5) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a wholesaler if that firearm is being returned to the wholesaler and is intended as merchandise in the wholesaler's business.
(6) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun by a dealer to himself or herself.
(7) The loan of an unloaded firearm by a dealer who also operates a target facility which holds a business or regulatory license on the premises of the building designated in the license or whose building designated in the license is on the premises of any club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets upon established ranges, whether public or private, to a person at that target facility or club or organization, if the firearm is kept at all times within the premises of the target range or on the premises of the club or organization.
(8) The delivery of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a gunsmith for service or repair.
(9) The return of an unloaded firearm to the owner of that firearm by a dealer, if the owner initially delivered the firearm to the dealer for service or repair.
(10) The loan of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a person who possesses a valid entertainment firearms permit issued pursuant to Section 12081, for use solely as a prop in a motion picture, television, video, theatrical, or other entertainment production or event.
(11) The loan of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a consultant-evaluator, if the loan does not exceed 45 days from the date of delivery of the firearm by the dealer to the consultant-evaluator.
(c) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

So only if a person delivers the firearm to us for service or repair do we not have to submit DROS.