large-capacity magazine permit

[kemasa]

I was just doing the paperwork to renew my large-capacity magazine permit and made the mistake of actually reading the letter.

It states:

Pursuant to Penal Code section 32315, you must have a permit issued by the DOJ to engage in the import or export of large-capacity magazines

But CA PC 32315 says:

32315. Upon a showing that good cause exists, the Department of
Justice may issue permits for the possession, transportation, or sale
between a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915,
inclusive, and an out-of-state client, of large-capacity magazines.

It does not say what the letter claims that it does.

Did I miss something? CA PC 12020 and 32310 seem to try to do the same thing, but have the same issues. Is 32310 a new section?

[p7m8jg]

Potatoe, potatto. What one section allegedly giveth the next one taketh away.

Either way, you can't legally import/export hi-cap mags into Kalifornia without permit issued by DOJ. There are so many sections that technically may apply depending on your situation. And, of course, the DOJ won't give you legal advice on which one to follow for your particular scenario.

Realize that a lot of Penal Code sections will be renumbered in January, making it all even more confusing for everybody. But hey! If you can't pass a budget, at least you can re-number some laws to keep everybody on their toes!

If I had such a permit, I'd fight to get it renewed. Good luck!

[five.five-six]

high cap mags are such a nuisance

[kemasa]

Either way, you can't legally import/export hi-cap mags into Kalifornia without permit issued by DOJ. There are so many sections that technically may apply depending on your situation. And, of course, the DOJ won't give you legal advice on which one to follow for your particular scenario.

Actually, I am not sure that is actually true if you read the law closely. I have asked and the DOJ person just got upset. Take a look at the law and the exemptions.

Realize that a lot of Penal Code sections will be renumbered in January, making it all even more confusing for everybody. But hey! If you can't pass a budget, at least you can re-number some laws to keep everybody on their toes!

Renumbering is one thing, but the PC also seems to be different.

My point was that the DOJ was claiming that a PC section said something that it doesn't. It does not matter in one sense, but on the other hand they should not be making false statements.

[Librarian]

The prior number to 32315 was 12079(a)

(a) Upon a showing that good cause exists, the Department of
Justice may issue permits for the possession, transportation, or
sale between a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 and an
out-of-state client, of large capacity magazines.
(b) For purposes of this section, "large capacity magazine" shall
have the same meaning as that set forth in paragraph (25) of
subdivision (c) of Section 12020.

Do you suppose "transportation, or sale between a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 and an out-of-state client, of large capacity magazines." might include import or export?

[kemasa]

T
Do you suppose "transportation, or sale between a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 and an out-of-state client, of large capacity magazines." might include import or export?

I would say that the sale from an out of state seller would include importation, but it would be part of the sale.

The to or from aspect is also quite interesting in 12020(b)(21).

BTW, a person offering a large capacity magazine for sale is illegal and there is no exclusion for offering it for sale to only those outside of CA.

[rogtac]

BTW, a person offering a large capacity magazine for sale is illegal and there is no exclusion for offering it for sale to only those outside of CA.

I believe you can sell large capacity magazines to addresses in other states, whether you have a high cap permit or not...u just cant have possession of them if you don't have a high cap permit. How do you do this? Drop-ship. I also believe a non-high cap permit holder can sell to people in CA as long as they provide the dealer/retailer appropriate credentials to legally own high cap mags and as long as the non-HCP dealer/retailer drop-ships the mags to the customer.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[tenpercentfirearms]

I believe you can sell large capacity magazines to addresses in other states, whether you have a high cap permit or not...u just cant have possession of them if you don't have a high cap permit. How do you do this? Drop-ship.

Huh? Possession is not illegal in this state. Period. This is what is illegal.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

If you are saying that someone who sells large capacity magazines by having them dropped shipped so they never actually enter the state is not violating the law, that is a big risk since you are still selling large capacity magazines from inside CA. Even if the magazines do not enter the state, a DA could argue that you are a person in this state who is offering large capacity magazines for sale. And selling large capacity magazines out of state isn't that lucrative a business when there are other FFLs that get the same or better discounts as a non FFL (I am assuming you are talking about a non-FFL getting into the magazine business since any FFL with half a brain has a permit).

I also believe a non-high cap permit holder can sell to people in CA as long as they provide the dealer/retailer appropriate credentials to legally own high cap mags and as long as the non-HCP dealer/retailer drop-ships the mags to the customer.

The problem is importation is clearly illegal. The person sending the magazines into the state is the exporter and the person receiving them is the importer. If you receive magazines from out of state, you are an importer and breaking the law. It doesn't matter who sent them in or who you paid for them, you are importing magazines and that is clearly illegal unless you have a large capacity magazine permit.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(26) The importation into this state of, or sale of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that permit.

If you are going to make these claims, you might want to quote the exact penal code you are talking about because everything I read in your post above appears incorrect. I might not be sufficiently understanding you so if you cited the penal code sections you are basing your claims off of, I might understand it better.

[rogtac]

Huh? Possession is not illegal in this state. Period. This is what is illegal.If you are saying that someone who sells large capacity magazines by having them dropped shipped so they never actually enter the state is not violating the law, that is a big risk since you are still selling large capacity magazines from inside CA. Even if the magazines do not enter the state, a DA could argue that you are a person in this state who is offering large capacity magazines for sale. And selling large capacity magazines out of state isn't that lucrative a business when there are other FFLs that get the same or better discounts as a non FFL (I am assuming you are talking about a non-FFL getting into the magazine business since any FFL with half a brain has a permit).


The problem is importation is clearly illegal. The person sending the magazines into the state is the exporter and the person receiving them is the importer. If you receive magazines from out of state, you are an importer and breaking the law. It doesn't matter who sent them in or who you paid for them, you are importing magazines and that is clearly illegal unless you have a large capacity magazine permit.



If you are going to make these claims, you might want to quote the exact penal code you are talking about because everything I read in your post above appears incorrect. I might not be sufficiently understanding you so if you cited the penal code sections you are basing your claims off of, I might understand it better.

Tenpercent,

My information was from speaking with someone from CA DOJ over the phone. I sell accessories online and do not hold an FFL, but as an accessories retailer I thought it to be silly to not be able to sell magazines of any capacity to customers in other states. so, I called CA DOJ and asked whether or not drop-shipping large capacity magazines would be legal if a customer in another state (example given was North Carolina) bought from my online store and then I had the item(s) drop-shipped from a distributor in another state (example given was Texas). The person on the phone told me that as long as those magazines to not physically go through me, then I am legal to sell them through drop-shipping. She also said that I could sell them to customers within CA as well, as long as they provide me with the credentials needed for them to legally be able to buy large capacity magazines. Now, I fully understand that what the DOJ person told me is not law, and that it is my responsibility to get the legal facts of whether or not I am able to do this, hence, I have not added any large capacity magazines to my website. I do not intend to sell magazines as a large part of my business, nor do i expect to make much from them, but I do feel they are an important accessory to offer as accessories is my business. You have written some great posts on CA law and I definitely take your words as wisdom. I may have jumped the gun on my post and I certainly did not intend for it to say, "yes, it is legal to sell large capacity magazines". You made a good and pretty obvious point that selling from within CA, whether the mags enter the state or not, is still considered import/export. I guess speaking with an attorney would have been better than speaking with DOJ. However, I'm just glad I decided to not add large capacity mags to my site for drop-shipping.