Private Parties and FFL Copies

[halifax]

Got a private party the will not send a rifle without a copy of my FFL despite having verified my status with ATF eZ Check. He says the post office will not accept the rifle without the license. The USPS rules on this seem to apply to handguns and other concealable firearms not rifles and shotguns.

USPS

Tell me again why some field agents say DON'T send copies to non-licensees. Is it based on a ruling?

[Capt_Communist]

They don't have a need to have a copy of your FFL.

modification comes to mind

[dirtyJ]

I heard it wasn't a set in stone thing, more of a guideline by the ATF because people have used FFL copies and forged IDs to get weapons with no checks.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I would just send him a copy. There is no rule you are supposed to or can't. The odds of this guy sending you a rifle falsifying and using your FFL are probably pretty slim.

[halifax]

I would just send him a copy. There is no rule you are supposed to or can't. The odds of this guy sending you a rifle falsifying and using your FFL are probably pretty slim.

Yeah, I don't see anything in here that is an outright prohibition:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2008-11.pdf

I'll just keep records of recipients as I've been doing.

Thanks

[Table Rock Arms]

You can send it to him as there is no regulation against it. However it is recommended that you do not send to individuals as there have been some instances of fraud. I was sent an FFL copy by a guy that was clearly a photoshop job. ATF is investigating it as we speak.

As for the post office, I don't believe there is any time that you would have to give them your FFL to ship a gun. First time I shipped a handgun USPS they asked me for a copy and I did give it to them, but I believe you could refuse and as long as you have the form 1508 your good to go. Might have to argue your way up the chain of command but you could do it.

The problem seems to be that there is some misinformation on gunbroker about it so lots of people think they need one to ship to an FFL.

Ryan

[halifax]

You can send it to him as there is no regulation against it. However it is recommended that you do not send to individuals as there have been some instances of fraud. I was sent an FFL copy by a guy that was clearly a photoshop job. ATF is investigating it as we speak.

Now that is interesting. Keep us posted please.

The problem seems to be that there is some misinformation on gunbroker about it so lots of people think they need one to ship to an FFL.

Ryan

That makes sense. It's the GB individuals that seem most obsessed with getting a copy.

[ripro75]

You can send it to him as there is no regulation against it. However it is recommended that you do not send to individuals as there have been some instances of fraud. I was sent an FFL copy by a guy that was clearly a photoshop job. ATF is investigating it as we speak.

As for the post office, I don't believe there is any time that you would have to give them your FFL to ship a gun. First time I shipped a handgun USPS they asked me for a copy and I did give it to them, but I believe you could refuse and as long as you have the form 1508 your good to go. Might have to argue your way up the chain of command but you could do it.

The problem seems to be that there is some misinformation on gunbroker about it so lots of people think they need one to ship to an FFL.

Ryan

First time I sent one USPS they didn't know what to do, it was their first time receiving one. They asked "what's this?" I said "I'm a firearms dealer shipping a handgun". "Oh OK, is it loaded?" "Um, no" I told them. (A postal worker chuckled in the back). I gave them the 1508 and she asked again "whats this for?", I said "for your records, make a paper airplane out of it if you want, have a nice day".

[EBR Works]

I ran into this a few weeks ago. The GB FAQ pages state:

Do not ship firearms to any other address provided by the person who provided you with the FFL number. Federal ATF law requires that you only ship to the address listed on the FFL license and no other address. We recommend that you use the EZ-Check verification, even if the buyer provides you with a certified copy of their FFL license. The information on the EZ-Check verification is always accurate and you should contact the ATF if the certified FFL copy does not match the EZ-Check web site verification.

You must still have at least a faxed copy of the certified FFL license, the EZ-Check web page is for viewing and double-checking that the FFL license information is correct.

The ATF now accepts a faxed copy of a Federal Firearms license as proof of authenticity for verification. This should help to make online firearm transactions easier and less confusing than before. A copy of the ATF newsletter detailing this policy change can be viewed by clicking this link: http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2005-08.pdf

http://www.gunbroker.com/Support/SupportFAQView.aspx?faqid=1127

[kemasa]

Gunbroker is a bunch of idiots. I have had discussions with them and they refuse to change their false information saying that it is required, even though I pointed them to the BATF FFL Newsletter and the law. They said that they would only change their statements if they got a letter from a BATF attorney. They don't care about the law or anything else and prefer to lie to people. There is another thread about this where I posted what they sent me.

As to the customer, I would send them a link to the newsletter, tell them that the BATF tells FFLs to not send a copy and that if they don't like it, then they can ship it through a FFL. While there is no law to prevent you from sending a copy, why should you do something which is not required and not suggested? Do you really want to let a person demand you do something which is not required and that you don't want to do? Also, if you do send your FFL, if you ever have a problem with someone faking or abusing your FFL, do you really want to tell the BATF that you gave out copies to non-licensees? Just because it is not illegal does not mean it is a good idea to do it.

There is no requirement for the USPS, FedEx or UPS to see a copy of the FFL, although some offices make things up. I was told that one UPS office demanded to inspect the firearm before it was shipped. I called and confirmed with Corp. that there was no such policy and told the seller that he should not deal with such a place which makes things up. Perhaps if the see an expensive firearm, it will somehow get lost or replaced with a brick.

At the Post Office, I have had the clerk make a copy of the 1508 form and give me the original back. This was due to a FFL demanding it back, when the original form is supposed to go to the postmaster. If you want a copy fine, if you want an original, then bring two, but the point it that some people get pressured into doing the wrong thing.

[halifax]

...As to the customer, I would send them a link to the newsletter, tell them that the BATF tells FFLs to not send a copy ...

Are you talking about some other newsletter because the one I quoted above doesn't tell "FFLs to not send a copy". It only says "This section does not apply to transfers between a licensee and an unlicensed person."

Before this issue came up on CG I never had qualms about sending a copy if requested.

[paul0660]

Why does the post office know there is a rifle in the box? A declaration that there are not liquids, hazardous materials, etc. is all they ask.

Plus, 432.1 sez":

11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.

[kemasa]

Are you talking about some other newsletter because the one I quoted above doesn't tell "FFLs to not send a copy". It only says "This section does not apply to transfers between a licensee and an unlicensed person."

Before this issue came up on CG I never had qualms about sending a copy if requested.

The newsletter states that non-licensees are not required to get a copy. The second aspect is that the BATF tells FFLs to not give a copy to non-licensees, which the person can call and confirm that.