FFL's and restraining order transfers

[blakdawg]

FFL's - by way of background, I am an attorney who periodically requests temporary restraining orders, typically in elder physical or financial abuse cases. One of the consequences of being on the receiving end of a restraining order is that the recipient has 24 hours to dispose of all of their firearms, either to a dealer or to a LE agency.

As a gun person, I don't feel like that's very reasonable, at least where there's no clear evidence that the restrained person has or is likely to misuse a firearm.

Because of the process for issuing a TRO, it's possible that a dishonest person can misuse the system to cause another person a lot of trouble and hassle and embarassment. After a TRO is issued, a noticed hearing will be held, typically in about 3 weeks, and the restrained party has an opportunity to explain their side of the story, and potentially have their rights restored.

My impression is that many people deal with this situation by "giving the guns to my brother" or otherwise informally relinquishing possession. This is not in compliance with CA law, though my impression is that judges often let the restrained party get away with it.

I would never suggest that a client relinquish the firearms to an LE agency in CA because I am very skeptical that they'd ever be returned - or, if they could not be returned legally, that the LE agency would cooperate in allowing them to be sold and the funds made available to the restrained person.

So I'm curious if or how FFL's deal with this - my vision is that you guys get someone walking in your door with an armful of guns saying "I've gotta get these out of my name, TODAY."

Do you see that? If so, do you end up buying the guns, or accepting them for storage, or agreeing to sell them on consignment, or ..?

[jtmkinsd]

It all depends on the situation, which can vary widely.

"Giving guns to brother" may be the jargon used by the individual, but as to the legality of me purchasing/taking possession of the firearms, and then transferring/selling them to the individual's brother, is perfectly within the law. The point is to get the guns out of the possession of the "offender".

Restraining orders are handed out like candy...and for a gun owner, it makes them a perfect target for a neighbor, or vindictive spouse/gf/bf who is "going to fix him/her".

Most instances I pick up from local LE, because they have already seized the firearms. In the cases where the individual brings them to me, I take possession of them and dispose of them accordingly.

[blakdawg]

"Giving guns to brother" may be the jargon used by the individual, but as to the legality of me purchasing/taking possession of the firearms, and then transferring/selling them to the individual's brother, is perfectly within the law. The point is to get the guns out of the possession of the "offender".

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand how this works from a Federal law/FFL perspective -

Are you saying this would be written up as a private party transfer, between restrained person and brother, where the FFL is not part of the buying/selling, you're essentially handling the registration/DROS paperwork -

or would this look like a sale to you of the restrained party's firearms, followed (maybe in an hour or a day or two) by a sale by you to the brother?

If it's the latter example, do you do the transaction at what you perceive to be FMV of the guns, or for some nominal consideration that the brother will also pay? (e.g., some guy sells you $5000 worth of guns for $50, but with the understanding that you'll sell the same $5000 worth of guns to his brother for $50, or for $50 + some reasonable fee?)

The case that I'm particularly concerned about/interested in (there is no pending transaction, I've just been thinking about how to keep people from getting screwed) is where the restrained person doesn't have a "brother" to come participate in a PPT.

If a guy walks into an FFL with an armful of guns that he's got to sell within 24 hours or face criminal penalties, that's not exactly a good negotiating position. And the FFL doesn't necessarily have a ton of cash sitting around to buy these guns, and/or doesn't think they'll sell well, or aren't a good match for the gun store's typical clients. So either the FFL doesn't buy the guns, or makes a super-lowball offer, not necessarily to be abusive, but because the guns aren't worth much to him.

Restraining orders are handed out like candy...and for a gun owner, it makes them a perfect target for a neighbor, or vindictive spouse/gf/bf who is "going to fix him/her".

That's what I'm concerned about - I can see where this at least theoretically could be a significant deprivation of someone's gun rights, I'm just trying to figure out if it works out to be a big problem in reality, and if so, what sort of intervention or assistance would be needed to address that.

[jtmkinsd]

Money is not the issue (aside from the fees I charge to transfer/ship/consign a firearm). Once the restrained party gives them to me (to dispose of) he/she has complied with the requirement. I can hold them until they can get their rights restored, I can consign them, I can transfer them to another individual (in the form of a PPT), or I can ship them to another FFL for transfer (presumably to a friend or family member somewhere else in or out of state).

As far as it being abused, I agree with you, and believe many of the cases I have handled have some degree of intentional infliction of pain and anguish for the gun owner by the person obtaining the restraining order. As far as addressing that, I really see no way to do that in a state where guns are widely seen only as implements of murder.

[kemasa]

It is also possible to hold the firearms until they are sold or transferred, without any payment other than storage. I think that you are missing some aspects to firearms and transfers, especially when it relates to payment. While the FFL "owns" the firearm when it is transferred to the FFL, that does not mean that they have paid for the firearm.

It is not a good idea to do the transfer as a PPT since if the buyer if prohibited, the firearms would have to go to LE (required).

[blakdawg]

Thanks for your comments. I have some additional thoughts about this that I will discuss by PM.

[TripleT]

The TRO and how an FFL can hold firearms is really questionable, at least in my mind and after refering to this.

The important text reads:

" (b) Upon the issuance of a protective order against a person
pursuant to subdivision (a), the court shall order that person to
relinquish any firearm in that person's immediate possession or
control, or subject to that person's immediate possession or control,
within 24 hours of being served with the order, either by
surrendering the firearm to the control of local law enforcement
officials, or by selling the firearm to a licensed gun dealer, as
specified in Section 12071 of the Penal Code."

I don't see a provision for consignment or storage. Maybe a broad interpretation would be that once the FFL receives the firearm(s) they are in the process of being sold. Don't know, not an attorney...