How to become an FFL (gun dealer) in California

[audiophil2]

A little vague on the home based aspect. ATF cannot inspect your entire home unless you make your entire home your business. You can designate specific areas and that is all they can enter without a warrant.

The gunshow thing is not entirely correct either. If I pull a gun out of inventory for personal use I can sell it privately after holding it for 1 year off the books. ATF recommends putting it back on the books but it is not required.

The article leaves out the business structure and all the pros and cons for each type that have a big impact on FFLs.

[kemasa]

TTAG has an article today - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...to-get-an-ffl/

Aside from leaving out the CA-specific bits, does this seem correct?

Pretty much accurate, although the IOI doesn't know the local stuff. Getting the FFL is the easy part, all of the state and local issues can vary from easy to near impossible or in some cases flat out impossible. Try opening a FFL business in the city of Los Angeles, for example. Then you need to learn all the laws and issues, which takes a lot and is ongoing.

It is kind of like saying it is easy to open a restaurant because it is easy to learn to cook.

[Librarian]

TTAG has an article today - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...to-get-an-ffl/

Aside from leaving out the CA-specific bits, does this seem correct?

[kemasa]

I want to apply for an FFL Class 3 ( Curios and Relics) so I can have ammunition shipped to me in Calif. I have reviewed the requirements for for the FFL 3, and it doesn't seem a big deal because I would not be selling anything. But I can't find anything about requirements in CA. For regular FFL, I need business license, store front, etc. Do I need to do anything in CA for a Class 3?

For CA you also need a CA DOJ COE for ammo and to be exempt from the waiting period for C&R firearms and to be exempt from the 1 in 30. It isn't a business, so the rest isn't needed.

[SevenRedP]

Requirements for Class 3 in CA

I want to apply for an FFL Class 3 ( Curios and Relics) so I can have ammunition shipped to me in Calif. I have reviewed the requirements for for the FFL 3, and it doesn't seem a big deal because I would not be selling anything. But I can't find anything about requirements in CA. For regular FFL, I need business license, store front, etc. Do I need to do anything in CA for a Class 3?

I have searched through this thread, and couldn't find anything about this. I have also gone over the CA DOJ web site, and they don't mention the Class 3 except in passing ( don't need a business license ).

[kemasa]

The CFARS web site is quite interesting, it does not allow for a "-" in an email address, nor a "+", both of which are valid characters for email addresses. Then again, the DES system does not allow for a "-" for a serial number even though the BATF says that a "-" is part of the serial number. Also, it does not allow for a "&" in the model, even that some models have that part of the name, then you are supposed to sign it under penalty of perjury, so the comment field can be used for those issues.

[upsdude]

just an FYI for those who might not know already:

BOE has an option to print out your sellers permit once you open your account. they still mail them out if you want. phone number for the riverside office is 951-680-6400. I was able to speak to a real person without waiting an hour for a call back.

CA DOJ has an option to apply for your COE online(requires creating an account). once you get your ati you just fill in the fields. https://cfars.doj.ca.gov/login.do

fsc application site
https://fcs.doj.ca.gov/login.do;jses...O.fcs_worker09 Requires COE first

ATF field office-located in santa ana
714-347-9150
this office covers san bernardino county. not sure which other counties are covered, if any. chances are when you apply your IOI will be out of this office. they're pretty nice about getting status updates and answering questions.


oh and i guess a general tip: If you have to get a local firearms endorsement, find out if there is a certain person in the planning department that handles that, get his/her contact info and introduce yourself. If you can get something in writing from planning/zoning that your business will be allowed, it can save some time during the atf application process since the agent won't have to hunt down people in city hall for information.

also, i sent in my application to ATF at the middle to end of june, they started processing the application on 7/06, and i had my interview on 7/21. from what i've read atf usually calls to schedule, but in my case the agent just showed up. i wasn't there the first few times (i'm just doing a 'lease hold' so i don't even have the key to the property yet).

last i checked my license 'should' be in the mail, got the COE app done sent in and now it's on to the city to apply for the business license.

[ugimports]

good point lol

edit: is it just atf that visits or is it CA DOJ as well for inspections?

Both agencies are allowed to visit you 24x7. However, typically you will see them every 1-3 years depending on your size/number of issues. We're in the middle of our ATF audit now. Past 2 have had very low issue counts so they are on a 2-3 year cycle with us.

DOJ we're on a 3-4 year cycle with, again, due to very low issues during previous audits.

Our local PD / city reserves the right to inspect as well. However, I don't expect they do that sort of thing unless there's bad issues going on and they are looking for stuff to shut you down.

[upsdude]

i've been busy the past few days learning the joys of zoning regs in my city and cities nearby. talking to people in the planning department and hearing them gasp a little at the prospect of a firearms business is pretty laughable...but sell some dildos? suuure the city's open for business!! LOL

[upsdude]

good point lol

edit: is it just atf that visits or is it CA DOJ as well for inspections?

[ugimports]

well this gives me some hope, thanks for the response. did you get a business loan? and did you need to have a space while you were waiting for the clearances? or were you just doing because the location is what you wanted?

Cash savings is how I started.

You must have an address to get your license and apply for permits. Your landlord has to sign off knowing what you will do as well. I had limited choices. I had to secure the address and then start applying for licenses. Otherwise, what address would you plan on putting on your applications?

[upsdude]

well this gives me some hope, thanks for the response. did you get a business loan? and did you need to have a space while you were waiting for the clearances? or were you just doing because the location is what you wanted?

[ugimports]

i'll answer in reverse :P with respect to foot traffic, the person in zoning that i spoke to was under the assumption i was trying to open a 'typical gun store' in my house. meaning that anyone would be able to drive up and just start browsing in my living room (which is obviously not what i'm trying to do.)my intention is to build a base through family members, and referrals.


What do you mean by "start off small" and what do you define as "successfully"?
-by starting off small i meant sticking to ppt's and transfers, appointment based transactions/sales. obviously would be much easier from my house, since theres no addtional rent to worry about. I'm not even sure if i should bother with ammo with prop 63 passing...i think i read a post about possibly having to install pillars?

by successful i mean being able to stick around for more than a few months and build a good customer base. i'm not trying to open up another turners or bass pro (though my brother inlaw does work for condor) but i would like to be able to have something that makes me some money, especially since this would be something i could do once i retire. but fontana seems to only allow for firearms sales from commercial spaces. i think the big sticking point is trying to get the 'for retail sales of firearms' to satisfy the CA DOJ's requirements-even though i'm in no way trying to open up a 'traditional' gun store.

i've been poking around some of the threads in the ffl section, and i'm in no way thinking i'm going to be making 6 figures in a couple years time. it would be nice, but i'm looking at this realistically.
i spoke to mary in FPD( she handles firearms dealer stuff) and said the most recent gun dealer they approved closed up in 8 months. patriot guns i believe?

i hope that cleared things up. if not i'll try again

All I do is what's in your bold. Does me business in a commercial space being around for 8 years mean successful to you? If so, then yes it's possible. I'm in a much higher people market though. To give you an idea I'm in Fremont (you can look it up on a map). We have a minority of customers that travel 30+ miles passing several normal LGS to come to us for transactions. A majority of our customers come to us within 15-20 miles again passing multiple LGS to get to us.

You have to do the math in your area to see if you'll survive. Clearly it's easier from home, but what the business license says vs what your city will permit you for are different things. My business permit says "Retail Sales of Firearms", but the city knows I don't do that. I was very explicit in my plan and how we would operate and it's spelled out in our conditional use permit as well.

Hopefully that answers what you're attempting to ask. Also, keep in mind, I was in the hole about 30k before I even opened up. Had to pay rent, permits, and fees just to go through the process to get my FFL. Also took me a year paying rent on a space I couldn't use until all my permits were in place. You may not have to go through that, but it's all part of your planning.

[upsdude]

i'll answer in reverse :P with respect to foot traffic, the person in zoning that i spoke to was under the assumption i was trying to open a 'typical gun store' in my house. meaning that anyone would be able to drive up and just start browsing in my living room (which is obviously not what i'm trying to do.)my intention is to build a base through family members, and referrals.


What do you mean by "start off small" and what do you define as "successfully"?
-by starting off small i meant sticking to ppt's and transfers, appointment based transactions/sales. obviously would be much easier from my house, since theres no addtional rent to worry about. I'm not even sure if i should bother with ammo with prop 63 passing...i think i read a post about possibly having to install pillars?

by successful i mean being able to stick around for more than a few months and build a good customer base. i'm not trying to open up another turners or bass pro (though my brother inlaw does work for condor) but i would like to be able to have something that makes me some money, especially since this would be something i could do once i retire. but fontana seems to only allow for firearms sales from commercial spaces. i think the big sticking point is trying to get the 'for retail sales of firearms' to satisfy the CA DOJ's requirements-even though i'm in no way trying to open up a 'traditional' gun store.

i've been poking around some of the threads in the ffl section, and i'm in no way thinking i'm going to be making 6 figures in a couple years time. it would be nice, but i'm looking at this realistically.
i spoke to mary in FPD( she handles firearms dealer stuff) and said the most recent gun dealer they approved closed up in 8 months. patriot guns i believe?

i hope that cleared things up. if not i'll try again

[ugimports]

has anyone been able to do this as a part time gig/start off small sucessfully from a commercial setting? the language in my city's municipal code seems pretty clear-and i'm not getting my hopes up that they would make an exception if it explained that i'm not planning to have all sorts of foot traffic, would focus on the internet, etc.

Not sure exactly what you're asking.

I have been in business for 8 years from a commercial office (not zoned for retail). We choose to do it part time, but my wife, more or less, is there full time these days.

What do you mean by "start off small" and what do you define as "successfully"?

Also not sure what you're referring to in regards to foot traffic, etc..