FFL Question about sales

[emgee00]

Hello

I am sure this has been asked but I have been spending a ton of time trying to find the answer to these questions.....

Can someone deliver a gun from out of state, in person, to do a PPT through an FFL or would that "someone" be breaking any laws by doing so?

Secondly, can a father from out of state deliver, in person, a family transfer/gift to a daughter or son and then the "giftee" just do the intra-family transfer and pay the $19? Oh yeah, without an FFL?

Thanks in advance for any help you may provide in clarifying these questions.

Happy New Year!

[Librarian]

Hello

I am sure this has been asked but I have been spending a ton of time trying to find the answer to these questions.....

(1)Can someone deliver a gun from out of state, in person, to do a PPT through an FFL or would that "someone" be breaking any laws by doing so?

(2)Secondly, can a father from out of state deliver, in person, a family transfer/gift to a daughter or son and then the "giftee" just do the intra-family transfer and pay the $19? Oh yeah, without an FFL?

Thanks in advance for any help you may provide in clarifying these questions.

Happy New Year!

(1) yes, but remember California has a special meaning for PPT, which allows only participants with CA ID - what you describe is an interstate transfer

(2) No. Except for inheritance, Federal law requires the FFL.

Lots more answers at the Wiki.

[emgee00]

Do you happen to have the PC Code that I can read and mull over? Thanks

[jtmkinsd]

Do you happen to have the PC Code that I can read and mull over? Thanks

All the relevent PC is in the Wiki

[emgee00]

All the relevent PC is in the Wiki

OK, I am confused....from what I read below, it looks like this might be possible???

I am a little concerned as I just bought an off-lister from a local CG'er that did it this way and it is still in the process of the DROS.

This info came right from the wiki

12072 (d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a
dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties
to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer
of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to
Section 12082.
12078 (c) (1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply
to the infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a
handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other
means by one individual to another if both individuals are
members of the same immediate family.
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest,
intestate succession, or other means by one individual to
another if both individuals are members of the same immediate
family and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within
30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid
mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a
report that includes information concerning the
individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was
obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in
question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant
to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department
of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a
handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or
older.
(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means
any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

OK, I am confused....from what I read below, it looks like this might be possible???

I am a little concerned as I just bought an off-lister from a local CG'er that did it this way and it is still in the process of the DROS.

This info came right from the wiki...

Notice that when Librarian said that it was illegal he said that it would violate Federal law. The Penal Code that you just quoted is California law. Getting a gun from your parent out of state and bringing back to California with you and registering it with CalDoj via the Intra-Familial Handgun Report form is 100% legal under California law. But it is also 100% illegal under Federal law. Both you and your parent would be guilty of Federal crimes.

Here's the section of the wiki on interstate transfers...

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

[jtmkinsd]

OK, I am confused....from what I read below, it looks like this might be possible???

As was stated, Federal law offers no such exemption to using an FFL when purchasing/transferring firearms across State lines...the transaction must go through an FFL in the buyer's State.

I've written a letter to BATFE posing several scenarios for intrafamilial transfers and asked if it was legal or not under Federal law...am waiting for response at this time.

One question I had:

California offers an exemption from using an FFL to transfer firearms between "immediate family members". Federal law states a non-licensee can buy a firearm in another State as long as the transfer is done through an FFL, and the transaction complies with the laws in both States.

Question: Can an "immediate family" member as defined by CA law, who is a CA resident, travel to another State and transfer/take possession a firearm from another "immediate family" member using a licensee in that State (if required by the non-CA residents State), and travel back to CA with said firearm.

School of thought has always been that the firearm needs to be shipped to a CA FFL to do the transfer...but I see my scenario as completely within the law. If you travel to your folks place for a visit...you should be able to transfer the firearm at an FFL in your folks State, and bring it back.

Another viewpoint on this, if "private sales" are not regulated at all in the State where your folks live (VA for example) then going there and picking up the firearm and bringing it back should be legal.

But of course...I'll wait for the reply from BATFE

[Mssr. Eleganté]

...Another viewpoint on this, if "private sales" are not regulated at all in the State where your folks live (VA for example) then going there and picking up the firearm and bringing it back should be legal.

I agree that your first scenario of transferring a rifle or shotgun from your parents at an out of state FFL would be perfectly legal. But your second scenario is definitely illegal. Besides the sale complying with the laws of both States, you also need to do the transfer at an FFL's licensed premises for the transfer to be legal. And only rifles and shotguns are eligible.

[jtmkinsd]

I agree that your first scenario of transferring a rifle or shotgun from your parents at an out of state FFL would be perfectly legal. But your second scenario is definitely illegal. Besides the sale complying with the laws of both States, you also need to do the transfer at an FFL's licensed premises for the transfer to be legal. And only rifles and shotguns are eligible.

That's why I asked about the FFL in the other State...so if it's a handgun, you go to an FFL in that State...seems ok to me...but like I said...I'll wait for the response.

EDIT: Upon further review of the CFR...it could be interpreted as a no go...unless, the parent/child loaned the handgun to the recipient for "sporting purposes"...a broad phrase indeed.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

That's why I asked about the FFL in the other State...so if it's a handgun, you go to an FFL in that State...seems ok to me...but like I said...I'll wait for the response.

Federal law says that for anybody to acquire a firearm in a different State they have to follow all four rules...

1. Must be a rifle or shotgun (other long guns and handguns are forbidden)
2. Must be acquired through an FFL licensed in that State
3. Must be acquired at that FFL's licensed premises
4. The rules of both States need to be followed

So there is no way for an unlicensed person to go to another State and acquire a handgun from a living relative. And if they are acquiring a long gun they have to do it at an FFL.

[jtmkinsd]

Federal law says that for anybody to acquire a firearm in a different State they have to follow all four rules...

1. Must be a rifle or shotgun (other long guns and handguns are forbidden)
2. Must be acquired through an FFL licensed in that State
3. Must be acquired at that FFL's licensed premises
4. The rules of both States need to be followed

So there is no way for an unlicensed person to go to another State and acquire a handgun from a living relative. And if they are acquiring a long gun they have to do it at an FFL.

If I live in AZ...my son visits me from CA...tells me about a pistol match coming up and how he would like to use my pistol...I give it to him...he takes it back, shoots the match. Afterwards I decide to give it to him. He fills out intrafamilial handgun form and sends it off.

Were any laws broken?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

(a) It shall be unlawful -

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

[Librarian]

If I live in AZ...my son visits me from CA...tells me about a pistol match coming up and how he would like to use my pistol...I give it to him...he takes it back, shoots the match. Afterwards I decide to give it to him. He fills out intrafamilial handgun form and sends it off.

Were any laws broken?

I believe so.

If you, as an AZ resident, lend the gun to your CA son, and he then takes it back to CA, I think he violates 18 USC 922 (a)(3) - he doesn't have a license, and he imported the gun. If he uses it for a match IN AZ and returns it to you, still in AZ, then all is well.

Similarly, you, as an AZ resident, violate 18 USC 922 (a)(5) if you knowingly transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who does not live in your state of residence (and it isn't a loan, as specified). I think you need to decide about gifts ahead of time, before the gun goes out of state, but that part is opinion

[emgee00]

Thanks for all the great insight guys! I really appreciate it. Sometimes I find myself spending way too much time trying to navigate to what I really need.....

As far as the recent purchase for me, I believe the family member brought it into CA as a gift but I am a little unclear on this. Would this still be considered a no-go???

[Mssr. Eleganté]

...As far as the recent purchase for me, I believe the family member brought it into CA as a gift but I am a little unclear on this. Would this still be considered a no-go???

Yes, if a father from out of state gives a firearm to his California resident son without going through an FFL then he has broken Federal law. He has not broken any California laws.

If you then do a PPT with the son for that firearm at a California dealer then you have not broken any laws. The son will not have broken any more laws by doing the PPT with you, but he will still have broken the law on the first transfer from his dad.