Need Advice

[Dayraptor]

My business partner from Georgia recently left his handgun with me for my father to test during a vacation visit, How can I ship this handgun back to him, or possibly apply for ownership if he decides he doesn't care to get it back?

[jtmkinsd]

Individuals may not ship firearms to another individual across state lines. You will have to ship to an FFL in his home state. From there it's up to the laws in his home state as to what he has to do. The only way to avoid this is for him to come back and pick up his own firearm, or bring it to him. It's a little more complicated if he decides he doesn't want the firearm. You would have to find a willing FFL who will take the gun, get a copy of the current owners driver's license, and treat it as a shipped in firearm for transfer. This all assumes it is a CA roster approved handgun. If it isn't, and you or your father is not roster exempt, there is no means by which you may obtain legal ownership of the gun in CA.

[dachan]

Individuals may not ship firearms to another individual across state lines.

Unless its back to the owner, I believe, according to federal law. For example, an individual is allowed to ship a firearm to a gunsmith across state lines, then receive it back directly from the smith. So unless GA law doesn't allow individuals to receive firearms back, you can ship the firearm directly back to the owner.

[jtmkinsd]

Unless its back to the owner, I believe, according to federal law. For example, an individual is allowed to ship a firearm to a gunsmith across state lines, then receive it back directly from the smith. So unless GA law doesn't allow individuals to receive firearms back, you can ship the firearm directly back to the owner.

A gunsmith is an 01 FFL

[tenpercentfirearms]

My business partner from Georgia recently left his handgun with me for my father to test during a vacation visit, How can I ship this handgun back to him, or possibly apply for ownership if he decides he doesn't care to get it back?

It is legal for your business partner to ship firearms to himself. So I do believe that he flew back, put the handgun in a package with him name on the deliver to and with his name on the return address and shipped it back to himself.

[Matt C]

It is legal for your business partner to ship firearms to himself. So I do believe that he flew back, put the handgun in a package with him name on the deliver to and with his name on the return address and shipped it back to himself.

I don't really see why the partner has to fly back. He can print out a UPS/FEDEX label, put it on a box, send the box, and schedule a pick up. Gun goes in the box and carrier takes it away. Shipper to from should be the same, the partner.

[dachan]

A gunsmith is an 01 FFL

Doesn't have to be, though most are so that they can receive firearms directly from their out of state customers. I'm assuming you are bringing this up to say the OP is not a O1 FFL; but it makes no difference to the original question since no one has to be a FFL to ship a firearm, only to receive one across state lines (unless as originally indicated, you are the owner of the firearm being shipped).

[jtmkinsd]

Doesn't have to be, though most are so that they can receive firearms directly from their out of state customers. I'm assuming you are bringing this up to say the OP is not a O1 FFL; but it makes no difference to the original question since no one has to be a FFL to ship a firearm, only to receive one across state lines (unless as originally indicated, you are the owner of the firearm being shipped).

I beg to differ...and so does BATFE. If you know someone who is operating a gunsmithing business without a license, I would strongly urge you to inform them of the Federal requirements. They would be not only jeapordizing their business, but their freedom as well (the penalty is very harsh, look it up)

As I said, it would be illegal for an individual (non-licensee) to ship the handgun to another individual (non-licensee). Owner, non-owner, whatever the case...it's illegal. A "gunsmith" who does not have an 01 FFL is not a gunsmith in the eyes of the law and is not legally able to take possession of firearms. In CA it would be illegal for any individual to leave their firearm with a non-licensed "gunsmith" as it would be considered a loan to another individual (non-licensee) who is not "known" to the gun owner.

As for the OP's question, I missed the possibility that Wes (tenpercentfirearms) raised. It IS legal for individuals to ship firearms to themselves...so that would be another option.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I don't really see why the partner has to fly back. He can print out a UPS/FEDEX label, put it on a box, send the box, and schedule a pick up. Gun goes in the box and carrier takes it away. Shipper to from should be the same, the partner.

Except the partner did not ship the gun. Someone else did. Again, it is crucial that the guy be the one to ship the box. The above scenario would not work if someone were to ask who actually shipped the gun. Now how do you prove the guy didn't ship the gun? I guess by self-incrimination.

[dachan]

I beg to differ...and so does BATFE. If you know someone who is operating a gunsmithing business without a license, I would strongly urge you to inform them of the Federal requirements. They would be not only jeapordizing their business, but their freedom as well (the penalty is very harsh, look it up)

As I said, it would be illegal for an individual (non-licensee) to ship the handgun to another individual (non-licensee). Owner, non-owner, whatever the case...it's illegal. A "gunsmith" who does not have an 01 FFL is not a gunsmith in the eyes of the law and is not legally able to take possession of firearms. In CA it would be illegal for any individual to leave their firearm with a non-licensed "gunsmith" as it would be considered a loan to another individual (non-licensee) who is not "known" to the gun owner.

As for the OP's question, I missed the possibility that Wes (tenpercentfirearms) raised. It IS legal for individuals to ship firearms to themselves...so that would be another option.

Not the best reference, but the first to be found in 3secs (emphasis added), http://www.gunsmithffl.com/

Q: "DO I NEED TO HAVE AN FFL IN ORDER TO BE A GUNSMITH? I'M IN SCHOOL TO BECOME A GUNSMITH RIGHT NOW, BUT AM NOT SURE IF I NEED THE FFL TOO..."

A: Private Gunsmiths offering services only to private gun owners fall under varying STATE laws. Although you need to keep a bound book in many states just like an FFL, to log repairs in and out, you don't HAVE to have an FFL to be a Gunsmith for strictly PRIVATE work. BUT... if you intend to sell even a few of your own guns, or work on lowers, create new models, buy wholesale, buy and sell etc, you MUST have one. If you call ATF national, they will answer "YES" to this question every time. But case law is not that clear.

First, there are over 100,000 professional gunsmiths and probably nearly 500,000 amateurs or part timers. Less than 10% of these have FFLs, and ATF doesn't run around looking for them unless you are an egregious gun act violator-- basically selling guns without a license. Selling collections at gun shows to in-state residents only is another gray area. There are many other exceptions, such as working for another FFL, being a police armorer, working part time or as a hobby, etc. In fact, ATF won't approve your gunsmith FFL application unless you have a "profit motive" -- not just a desire to collect or help friends.

But that's not the point! An FFL opens the door for every gunsmith to first become a seller, to buy wholesale, to open accounts at the gunsmith supply houses, to collect rather than pay transfer fees, to buy lowers directly, then even become a custom manufacturer. It opens doors you just can't imagine without it!

Also, besides having a firearm being returned by a gunsmith, there are many other scenarios where a firearm can be legally shipped by an individual across state lines directly back to the legal owner. The key factor is that the firearm is already legally owned by the individual receiving it and was just temporarily out of their possession.

[Dayraptor]

I was also told that is the the firearm remains in my possession for over 30 days, I must inform CA. DOJ, is this a fact?

[Matt C]

Except the partner did not ship the gun. Someone else did. Again, it is crucial that the guy be the one to ship the box. The above scenario would not work if someone were to ask who actually shipped the gun. Now how do you prove the guy didn't ship the gun? I guess by self-incrimination.

Yeah, I guess it's a bit too questionable.

[jtmkinsd]

Not the best reference, but the first to be found in 3secs (emphasis added), http://www.gunsmithffl.com/



Also, besides having a firearm being returned by a gunsmith, there are many other scenarios where a firearm can be legally shipped by an individual across state lines directly back to the legal owner. The key factor is that the firearm is already legally owned by the individual receiving it and was just temporarily out of their possession.

Hmmm...so a .com says it's ok...as long as you're not a really bad person the ATF won't come after you...

[Dayraptor]

Individuals may not ship firearms to another individual across state lines. You will have to ship to an FFL in his home state. From there it's up to the laws in his home state as to what he has to do. The only way to avoid this is for him to come back and pick up his own firearm, or bring it to him. It's a little more complicated if he decides he doesn't want the firearm. You would have to find a willing FFL who will take the gun, get a copy of the current owners driver's license, and treat it as a shipped in firearm for transfer. This all assumes it is a CA roster approved handgun. If it isn't, and you or your father is not roster exempt, there is no means by which you may obtain legal ownership of the gun in CA.

The gun is on the roster as legal to own, If my partner sends me a copy of his drivers license is it possible to process a change of ownership without shipping back and forth? Also, if anyone missed my earlier post, I was told that if the firearm is in my possession for more than 30 days I must notify CA DOJ by submitting a Record of Ownership document. Is this true?

[jtmkinsd]

The gun is on the roster as legal to own, If my partner sends me a copy of his drivers license is it possible to process a change of ownership without shipping back and forth? Also, if anyone missed my earlier post, I was told that if the firearm is in my possession for more than 30 days I must notify CA DOJ by submitting a Record of Ownership document. Is this true?

You would have to take the firearm to a friendly FFL...one who is willing to take possession of the firearm while you serve your ten day wait. They may or may not take a copy of the owners ID from you...they may want to speak with the original owner and be certain it is all kosher. It could then be treated as a shipped in dealer transfer.

There is no notification I know of to give DOJ...you cannot fill out a record of ownership...because you are not the owner in CA until you've gone through DROS