Intrafamilial transfer to get non-roster Sig P226 E2

[viet4lifeOC]

Hi,

I am three months into gun ownership. Just need advice to legally navigate CA gun laws. I have a Sig Mosquito .22 and will pick up a Sig P6 this Thursday. I just love the Sigs. Unfortunately, I have small hands and the P226 just doesn't feel right. I've thought about buying a Sig 2022, but no local gun shop carries them for me to try it's grips. Three months ago, I felt the Sig E2 had everything I wanted but was off roster. So I bought the Sig P6 read up on the Sig 2022. I just can't bring myself to buying several Sigs to come close to having an E2. Nor buying one Sig and spending more money and time to make it an E2. I've asked around and read up that my brother in Texas could buy the Sig P226E2 and gifting/intrafamilial transfer to my dad in California . My dad then gifts/intrafamilial transfers it to me.

I called 4 local gun shops in Orange County. Three would not do it for lack of not knowing how to do it and one shop said this:

My brother ships the Sig E2 to FFL dealer in California. My brother does not need to be present in the FFL dealers shop in CA. My dad then can go to the FFL shop and DROS the E2. My dad and I could then meet up at FFL dealer and do a transfer. OR my dad and I could come tithe FFL dealer on the same day and he couldpick it up and DROS it and transfer the E2 to me on the same day- I then DROS the E2 on that same day.

1). Is this correct? If not, then please correct and elaborate.
2). Can you break down the each fee and name (ie DROS fee) per transaction.
3). Does my brother in Texas need to go to an FFL dealer there to ship the E2 to an FFL dealer in CA? Or can he just fed-ex it to the CA FFL dealer.
4) is there a waiting period per transfer? For example, my dad has to wait X days to pickup the E2, then I have to wait X days to have my dad transfer the E2 to me?
5) any recommendation on an FFL dealer who is in the Westminster/Huntinton Beach/Orange/Costa Mesa area who does this type if transfer.


Thank you

[Quiet]

First thing you need to do is find a CA FFL dealer that is knowledgeable and willing to do an out-of-state intra-familial gift of a non-approved listed handgun.

I recommend contacting RifleGear in Costa Mesa. They are in the area you specified and are a knowledgeable FFL dealer.


After contacting a CA FFL dealer willing to do the transfer, follow these steps.
#1. Your brother ships the non-rostered handgun, with a letter stating it is a gift for your dad, to the CA FFL dealer.
#2. Your dad transfers (4473/DROS) the handgun. He will need valid identification (CA DL/ID), proof of residency and a HSC or an exemption to the HSC.
#3. After the 10 day wait, your dad takes the handgun home.
#4. Your dad then hands the handgun to you and says here's a gift from me to you.
#5. Within 30 days of accepting the handgun from your dad, you send an Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction Report with $19 to CA DOJ BOF.
#6. Enjoy your non-rostered handgun.
#7. About 4-32 weeks after sending in the form, CA DOJ BOF will mail you back acknowledgement of the transfer from your dad to you.

Be advised that your dad may like the handgun too much and not gift it to you.

[kemasa]

The one issue with this is that the Dad is not acquiring the firearm for himself, which is an issue due to the question on the 4473, but other than that, the above is correct, the transfer from your Dad to you is not subject to a DROS, only the form.

[ke6guj]

The one issue with this is that the Dad is not acquiring the firearm for himself, which is an issue due to the question on the 4473, but other than that, the above is correct, the transfer from your Dad to you is not subject to a DROS, only the form.

but if Dad is acquiring the firearm in order to gift it to the son, then that is allowable per the 4473, based on the instructions that state that gifting is ok.

[kemasa]

Yes, but the whole transaction is being done in order to get around the law regarding the certified list. The Dad is not is not paying for the firearm and therefore it is not a gift. The odds of getting caught is low, but ...

[ke6guj]

must one first pay for a firearm before he can gift it away? What if I win a firearm at a FNRA event and don't want it, so I want to give it to my father? I didn't pay for it, can I not gift it away after I pick it up from the dealer.

If one must pay for a firearm before he gifts it away, have the dad pay a nominal fee for the firearm, that way he can gift it away. But then you get to deal with whether or not CA's intrafamily exemptions allows for sales of firearms between grandparent, parent, child, and grandchild. I opin that the exemption does not exclude sales, but others have opined that the exemption does not allow for sales.

[kemasa]

No, you don't have to pay for something in order to give it away, but in this case it is very different. The Son wants the firearm, so he is getting the Brother to buy it, then transfer it to his Dad, then get it from his Dad, in order to bypass the law. If the Brother was to give the firearm as a gift to the Dad and then the Dad decided he did not want it and gave it to the other Son, then there would not be an issue. But in this case, the whole transaction is to get around the law. I doubt that you would get caught doing this and it might be that the DOJ would not even care about it, but those are both unknown.

The transfer form does not say that it is required to be a gift, it asks how it was acquired, which could be bought, gift, etc.

[viet4lifeOC]

QUIET.......thank you so FREAKin much. The sequence was clear, knowledgable, and understable. EXACTLY what I am looking for.

Kemasa and Ke6quj thanks for the the debate. That was my concern.. I am in deed going against the intent of the law, yet I am following the letter of the law.ie lawyers, lobbyist, accountants.

My only hiccup left is getting my dad to study and pass the HSC. What is the exception? The guy at the FFL said that on the day of accepting the E2 from my brother...my dad and I go the FFL dealer...my dad gets IDed...takes the gun...gives the gun to me right there and I DROS it. Is this correct? This would be ideal because my dad does not have an HSC.

Quiet...yes...the guy who actual sounded like he knew what to do was from Riflegear.

How many question are on the HSC test? Percentage to pass? I got a 100%, but dad going in (he probably won't study) and cold turkey it.

Thanks everyone...very informative.

[ke6guj]

My only hiccup left is getting my dad to study and pass the HSC. What is the exception?

the exemptions are as follows:

What are the Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) requirement exemption codes?

◦X01 = Special Weapons Permit Holder
◦X02 = Operation of Law Representative
◦X03 = Handgun being returned to the owner
◦X13 = FFL collector with COE (curio and relic handguns only)
◦X21 = Military - Active Duty
◦X22 = Military - Reserve
◦X25 = Military - Honorably Retired
◦X31 = Peace Officer - California - Active
◦X32 = Peace Officer - Federal - Active
◦X33 = Peace Officer - California - Honorably Retired
◦X34 = Peace Officer - California - Reserve
◦X35 = Peace Officer - Federal - Honorably Retired
◦X41 = Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) Permit Holder
◦X81 = P.O.S.T. 832 PC (Firearms) Training
◦X91 = Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers
◦X95 = Law Enforcement Service Gun to Family Member

before your father can take possession of the handgun, he must have an HSC (or fall under one of the exemptions above). So, no, he can't pick it up without an HSC because he is immediately retransfering it to you. And once he has it, you do not need to do a PPT DROS to get it to you. He can just give it to you and you'd need to submit the intrafamily form to CADOJ within 30-days.

The guy at the FFL said that on the day of accepting the E2 from my brother...my dad and I go the FFL dealer...my dad gets IDed...takes the gun...gives the gun to me right there and I DROS it. Is this correct? This would be ideal because my dad does not have an HSC.

almost sounds like the FFL is allowing your brother to ship the handgun to the FFL for your father. But instead of your father doing a DROS to pick it up after 10-days, he insteads gives it to you while it is still on the FFL's books. At that point, the FFL does a roster-exempt transfer to you. I dunno if that would work. It would eliminate the potential issue with the 4473 that Ken mentions.

How many question are on the HSC test? Percentage to pass? I got a 100%, but dad going in (he probably won't study) and cold turkey it.

Thanks everyone...very informative.

here is the study guide if he wants to look at it, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf . 30 questions, passing score is 23 (75%).

[viet4lifeOC]

almost sounds like the FFL is allowing your brother to ship the handgun to the FFL for your father. But instead of your father doing a DROS to pick it up after 10-days, he insteads gives it to you while it is still on the FFL's books. At that point, the FFL does a roster-exempt transfer to you. I dunno if that would work. It would eliminate the potential issue with the 4473 that Ken mentions.

Can someone chime in this? Is this possible?

Thank you

[tenpercentfirearms]

almost sounds like the FFL is allowing your brother to ship the handgun to the FFL for your father. But instead of your father doing a DROS to pick it up after 10-days, he insteads gives it to you while it is still on the FFL's books. At that point, the FFL does a roster-exempt transfer to you. I dunno if that would work. It would eliminate the potential issue with the 4473 that Ken mentions.

Can someone chime in this? Is this possible?

Thank you

I have heard of this and I would strongly recommend against it. As an FFL you have to think of the paper trail and an audit.

So you accept a firearm from an out of state resident. In your bound book, you log it in from the out of state resident. You process the DROS to the brother as an exempt gun. What there protects you when the DOJ accuses you of DROSing non rostered guns? First, you need to have a letter from the out of state son saying he is giving it to the father. That seems pretty legit.

However, are you going to have a letter from the father saying he is now giving it to his other son before even DROSing it? Did you just aid in a straw purchase as Kemasa is warning against? That would be an easy papertrail for the ATF and/or the CA DOJ to follow how the son out of state bought a gun, gave it to his father, who then gave it to the other son. If a warrant for financial records is obtained, will it be discovered that the CA son was actually the original purchaser?

There is no way in heck I would ever accept a non-roster handgun with a letter and DROS it to anyone other than the person on that letter. If it costs the people an extra $19 to have to send in a form to the CA DOJ and not have the gun DROS PPT at my store, that is the way it is going to be. I don't care what happens to the gun once it leaves my store as long as I don't know about it. If I know that a possible straw purchase is occurring, I cannot complete the sale.

In an audit, you are going to have to prove that roster exempt DROS you did was still legal. The out of state intrafamilial letter you have made would do that. However, then DROSing it to someone else not on that letter, I am not quite sure how that protects you at all. Along the same reasoning, that father could bring in 20 guns and then just give them as gifts to all of his bowling team. I just don't think that is going to fly.

[viet4lifeOC]

Tenpercentfirearms,

thank you for elaborating. It did sound a bit confusing when he explained it to me over the phone. Everything is clear now... Just have to read the handgun safety book and takecliff note like pointers for my dad to study. Last time I saw my mom and dad study was for their US citizenship exam. They were stressed. Hope he gets his HSC.


I'd like to thank everyone who reponded...made a confusing law understable.

[tenpercentfirearms]

If your father can't pass the HSC, you need to take away his car keys and keep him away from pointy objects.