CA DOJ Approval # for an Airgun?

[SDProtection]

I don't normally deal with Airguns at my shop, but a customer wanted me to order one in from my supplier and i did so. What has thrown me a bit is I see on packing slip that there is a CA DOJ verification # that the dealer got in before sending to me.

So now I am a bit confused. Is DOJ going to be looking to see an Airgun in my A&D book? Am I supposed to keep track of these too!?!

Any guidance is appreciated.

[halifax]

New one on me. Does it even have a serial number? I suppose an over cautious dealer could apply for and get a CFLC approval letter.

[SDProtection]

No serial number that I could find. I guess I will write this off as over cautious vendor, and let the gun go out the door.

Thanks.

[gunenvy]

I have had several customers receive airguns here in Ohio (twice from dealers in CA) that insisted it go to an FFL. I logged it in but didn't do any checks etc for the customer, no need. Silly as it seems, i prefer to do a little more work to be sure.

[tenpercentfirearms]

First, the CA DOJ cannot look into your bound book. Keep that number on file somewhere and when they ask to see it, show it to them. If they ask what guns it was for, tell them the sender generated it for a air rifle. Done.

[kemasa]

I have to question as to whether the DOJ can look at the bound book or not. Yes, it is a Federal thing, but you are required to follow Federal law. Under that assumption, the local police could not look at it either with regards to transfers. Since a drivers license is issued by the state, Federal LEO could not look at it, which is clearly not correct.

Do you have any supporting evidence that the DOJ can not look at the bound book or is it just your opinion?

[mariodesmo]

An air rifle is not a firearm, by definition I believe.

[kemasa]

An air rifle is not a firearm (except as redefined by some stupid cities, which does not apply to transfers). That means that the letter is not really valid since a firearm was not shipped. In thinking about it, I would call the CA DOJ and ask them what to do. I suspect they will either not know or say to ignore it.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I have to question as to whether the DOJ can look at the bound book or not. Yes, it is a Federal thing, but you are required to follow Federal law. Under that assumption, the local police could not look at it either with regards to transfers. Since a drivers license is issued by the state, Federal LEO could not look at it, which is clearly not correct.

Do you have any supporting evidence that the DOJ can not look at the bound book or is it just your opinion?

I'll do some research. Do you think the CA DOJ can look at a 4473 too? Do you think the CA DOJ can look at your financial software? What about your personal financial software?

A driver's license is issued by the state, but it is used for ID purposes. You do not always have to show your ID. You can refuse to show your ID and simply identify yourself verbally.

If the DOJ wants to know who I sold a gun to or where a certain gun is, I will tell them. That doesn't mean they have to look at my bound book.

Ken, I know there is a reason you stated the local police need to look at something. Isn't there language somewhere that states we will show local police items upon request? I think it is in the new ammo bill requirements and something else. Maybe the large cap mag A&D book. Do you know what I am talking about?

[joefreas]

I have ordered a bunch of airguns and they just arrive on my doorstep. No FFL but most required a signature.

[CSACANNONEER]

I have to question as to whether the DOJ can look at the bound book or not. Yes, it is a Federal thing, but you are required to follow Federal law. Under that assumption, the local police could not look at it either with regards to transfers. Since a drivers license is issued by the state, Federal LEO could not look at it, which is clearly not correct.

Do you have any supporting evidence that the DOJ can not look at the bound book or is it just your opinion?

DOJ, local LEAs, etc. can look at your books if, you let them or they have a warrent to look for a specific thing. They can not grab a set of books and go on a fishing expedition.

[kemasa]

I'll do some research. Do you think the CA DOJ can look at a 4473 too? Do you think the CA DOJ can look at your financial software? What about your personal financial software?

Strawman alert!!! Your bound book is part of the requirements for a firearms dealer, other software is not. Apples and oranges. Do you think that the DOJ can look at what firearms you have in inventory? Do you think that they can look at your FFL to see if you do actually have one? The FFL is Federal, so what right does the DOJ have to look at it?

A driver's license is issued by the state, but it is used for ID purposes. You do not always have to show your ID. You can refuse to show your ID and simply identify yourself verbally.

Yeah, take a look at what happens when you refuse.

If the DOJ wants to know who I sold a gun to or where a certain gun is, I will tell them. That doesn't mean they have to look at my bound book.

That does not answer the question as to whether they have a right to look at your bound book to ensure you are following the law.

Ken, I know there is a reason you stated the local police need to look at something. Isn't there language somewhere that states we will show local police items upon request? I think it is in the new ammo bill requirements and something else. Maybe the large cap mag A&D book. Do you know what I am talking about?

Sorry, but what you "know" is not correct. If the local DA has a case which involves a specific firearm and/or a specific transfer, local law enforcement would be involved. As such, it could be claimed that only the state can look at the documents, not local.

That is ALL it had to do with, nothing more. Everything else is just your incorrect assumptions.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Ken,

There is no need to be combative in this thread. Stick to the subject.

The subject at hand is does the DOJ have a right to look at your bound book absent a warrant?

I am working on an answer with my lawyer.

You can volunteer all sorts of information when asked. The DOJ could ask to look at your financial documents, would you let them? You have the right to let them. You also have the right to ask them to come back with a warrant.

So does the DOJ have the right to look at your bound books? That is the question.

I just talked to Dana and he says it is in 12071. So I will go look it up.

If the local cops show up and want to see your inventory, would you show them without a warrant? That is kind of the precedent we are trying to set here. Just because someone wants it, doesn't necessarily mean you have to give it. And when in doubt, tell them to talk to your lawyer.

Or you can comply. It is up to you.

edit: Ken, I think you misunderstood my "I know there is a reason you stated the local police need to look at something". The reason I know this is I have seen the language somewhere. I don't know it for any other reason than that. Read the post below, I knew that complying with LEOs is in our dictates to a certain degree. That is why I knew you were on to something. So I wasn't assuming anything other than you were on the right track. Was I incorrect on that assumption?

That is why I like about you. You always claim I assume things when you do the same exact thing. Just relax a bit.

[tenpercentfirearms]

PC 12071(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(17)The licensee shall maintain and make available for inspection during business hours to any peace officer, authorized local law enforcement employee, or Department of Justice employee designated by the Attorney General, upon the presentation of proper identification, a firearms transaction record.

Now the interesting thing is what is a "firearms transaction record"? Is it the 4473? Is it the A&D book? Is it a sales receipt? Is it the DROS? Dana is interpreting it as anything having to do with the transaction as I expect him to (including second hand dealers records).

As I stated on the phone with Dana, this is all a moot point for me since I staple all of this info together so if the DOJ wants to see my DROS, they are going to see the 4473. However, the bound book is still up in the air until we research this a bit further. We probably need some case law if there is some available.

[kemasa]

Wes, you need to stick to the subject. You brought up financial software, not me.

No, you were not correct in that assumption. I was not talking about that at all.