Short AR barrels - FFL01

[ParallaxTactical.com]

Hey guys,

We were wondering what the deal is with short-barrels (less than 16".)

We want to get some to fix to 16" via silver soldering.

Are these okay to have as an FFL01, or do we need to be an 07 to do this? Again, just for uppers, nothing for assembling a complete AR.

[billslugg]

Hey guys,

We were wondering what the deal is with short-barrels (less than 16".)

We want to get some to fix to 16" via silver soldering.

Are these okay to have as an FFL01, or do we need to be an 07 to do this? Again, just for uppers, nothing for assembling a complete AR.

Exclusive of the legality of the various barrel lengths:

Any change to barrel length from the original design is an alteration and if done for a business resale requires an 07. An 01 can alter for a customer or himself but not for resale.

Any citizen can smith or alter. They simply cannot keep a serialized receiver longer than 24 hours in the course of business. Alteration can be done for your own or someone else's weapons as long as there is no profit motive and you do not make a substantial portion of your income from it.

There is even an "occasional" exception for smithing and sales. Even if you lose your personal exemption, as long as you smith or sell only occasionally you are not breaking the law. There is no such exemption for manufacturing.

Lose your personal exemption and you break the law on occasion #1 of alteration and resale.

[ParallaxTactical.com]

I understand where it's coming from, but remember this is the upper only, it's not considered a firearm. Will that still apply?

[Endless]

I understand where it's coming from, but remember this is the upper only, it's not considered a firearm. Will that still apply?

I wanted to purchase a 10.5 inch barrel by itself and there is no law against owning a 10.5 inch barrel (upper). There were about a dozen at the last gunshow.
Its not considered a weapon. Long guns up here are not registered and their serial numbers arent monitored. Either are the 10.5 inch uppers. There were a bunch of signs at these dealers saying know your laws before purchasing and you really better know them before you buy.

Purchasing a 10.5 inch barrel and owning M4 LE Complete Carbines could show ATF or local police "intent" to use and therefore could result in a felony when pieced together, unless of course you pay the $200 and go through the 90 day background check and get the stamp. Then it would be a registered SBR.

[ParallaxTactical.com]

Upper receivers on ARs do not have serial numbers. From what I've researched there needs to be intent to make an SBR. Will post what I find.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Upper receivers on ARs do not have serial numbers. From what I've researched there needs to be intent to make an SBR. Will post what I find.

I am not a lawyer.... but...

If you have rifle lowers and shorter than 16" barrels together, that could be constructive possession.

Now... if you have pistol receivers and these short barrels were for the pistols... that would be legal... I would think.

[dachan]

It's unbelievable the amount of FUD generated whenever questions like this get posted.

Straight answer is if you are just bringing in barrels only, not as part of complete firearms, for modification and resale, you don't need an 07. However, if you use those barrels to assemble into complete firearms for sale, you will need an 07.

It is correct if you have a short barrel and a complete AR, but no pistol receiver, you are up against constructive possession.

The ATF FAQ is actually pretty good about what is and what is not manufacturing.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

[CSACANNONEER]

I am not a lawyer.... but...

If you have rifle lowers and shorter than 16" barrels together, that could be constructive possession.

Now... if you have pistol receivers and these short barrels were for the pistols... that would be legal... I would think.

Since ATF&E has ruled that stripped lowers (and even ones with shoulder stocks attached) which have never had a rifle upper on them are neither rifles nor pistols, any virgin lower should keep you from being charged with "constructive possession" on a federal level.

[billslugg]

I made this statement, based on the words of an ATF agent.

There is even an "occasional" exception for smithing and sales. Even if you lose your personal exemption, as long as you smith or sell only occasionally you are not breaking the law. There is no such exemption for manufacturing.

Then I went to the ATF FAQ page and read Question #6 - example 6:

A company acquires one receiver, assembles one firearm, and sells the firearm.

The company is not manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business and is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms. This company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

Then I read the definition of a manufacturer in the GCA 1968:

(10) The term "manufacturer"
means any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms or
ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution;


but then I find out that "dealer" gets a bye that "manufacturer" does not:

"...but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the enhancement
of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;

I do not understand where the line is drawn.
What is it that manufacturers do not get?
I am lost.

[dirtyJ]

Since ATF&E has ruled that stripped lowers (and even ones with shoulder stocks attached) which have never had a rifle upper on them are neither rifles nor pistols, any virgin lower should keep you from being charged with "constructive possession" on a federal level.

That may be true, but you could run into the whole 4473 says it's a receiver/DRoS says it's a rifle crap. It could be a very grey area that could end up with someone in jail over something minor.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Any change to barrel length from the original design is an alteration and if done for a business resale requires an 07. An 01 can alter for a customer or himself but not for resale.

What do you know? billsugg gets it wrong again. Only when manufacturing firearms or ammunition. A barrel is not a firearm nor ammunition.

I made this statement, based on the words of an ATF agent.

Stick around billslugg, you will soon learn you never listen to agents, but only bounce ideas off of several of them and then read it for yourself to figure out what is really going on.

[billslugg]

What do you know? billsugg gets it wrong again.

That is correct sir. However, when Bill Slugg gets it wrong, he admits it, fixes it and moves on. I am not infallible, only curious.

Stick around billslugg, you will soon learn you never listen to agents, but only bounce ideas off of several of them and then read it for yourself to figure out what is really going on.

I know that the word of an agent cannot determine the law. The law determines the law. I have presented copies of the law and of the ATF FAQ which are in contradiction. In other words, I did what you said and it did not work.

Perhaps you can assist us in resolving it.

If there is no occasional exemption for manufacturing, as the law states, why does the FAQ allow it?

[tenpercentfirearms]

If there is no occasional exemption for manufacturing, as the law states, why does the FAQ allow it?

I am not sure what you are referencing to. It seems to me to be consistent. Anyone not doing this as their regular course of business, doesn't need to be a manufacturer.

If you are asking what the line is from regular course of business and straight up manufacturing, then asking your local ATF auditor or even an industry auditor might not be a bad idea. What sets them off to what is in the business of.

[CSACANNONEER]

That is correct sir. However, when Bill Slugg gets it wrong, he admits it, fixes it and moves on. I am not infallible, only curious.

I applaud you for this. There are a few dealers here who refuse to think for themselves and only belive what a ATF agent supposedly told them regarding California laws.

[billslugg]

I am not sure what you are referencing to. It seems to me to be consistent. Anyone not doing this as their regular course of business, doesn't need to be a manufacturer.

If you are asking what the line is from regular course of business and straight up manufacturing, then asking your local ATF auditor or even an industry auditor might not be a bad idea. What sets them off to what is in the business of.

The uncertainty comes from the FAQ which adheres to your explanation above and:

The law which defines three things: Dealing, importing and manufacturing. "Engaged in the business" is the same for all three but when they step down further and define "regular course of business" they define it differently for manufacturing and importing. Dealing gets off with an "occasional" exemption.

Here is the definition verbatim from 18 USC 44(9):

(9)The term “importer” means any person engaged in the business of importing or bringing firearms or ammunition into the United States for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed importer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(11) The term “dealer” means
(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

Here is where it gets confusing, there is a definition for "engaged in the business" that is different for the three classes:

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

The bold portions show an "occasional" exemption for dealing that is not included for manufacturing or importing.

That seems to be where the difference is, and it seems to be inconsistent with the ATF FAQ I referenced earlier.