FFL "Storage/Insurance" & "Admin" FEES???

[Slotcar]

OK, so before anybody rips me a new one, I have done a number of searches regarding DROS Fees, Max Fees, FFL Fees, etc. before posting this thread.

With that said here is my scenario and request for advice and or solution:

I live in the High Desert Area near Joshua Tree National Park. There are 4 gun dealers that I know of in the area who actually have a store (one of them is Big 5).

I recently wanted to do a PPT where I was buying an S&W pistol.

So I started calling around to see who was available to do the PPT.

Dealer #1: Says he does not do PPTs even though he sells all but AR type weapons including handguns.

Dealer #2: Says, "NO problem. Come on in. We do PPT all the time. Our fees are $80. $35 for the DROS and $45 for 'storage and insurance' during the 10 days that your weapon is in our possession."

Dealer #3: Says, "We will do your PPT. The cost is a total of $60. The $60 is $35 for the DROS and $25 for 'Administrative costs'."

Dealer #4 (Big 5): Manager says they do not do PPT for handguns as they do not sell handguns.

So, here is what I am asking:

I already get it that Dealer #1 is supposedly in the wrong and in violation of the FFl agreement by refusing to do ANY PPTs. What should the approach be with this particular individual to help him understand the error of his ways?

Dealer #2 & 3 seem to be a little more difficult as they almost seem to be in collusion with each other knowing that anybody up here will have to drive at least 30 miles to the next nearest dealer and maybe even farther. Is it legal for them to charge these "other fees" on top of the DROS? I see their idea of the loop hole by not mis-representing the additional cost as "official" but is it legit?

To make things worse, one of the dealers recently sponsored a "gun show" where there were about 5 dealers and a number of accessory sellers. The official FFL of the show (Dealer #2) agreed to work with Dealer #3 to charge no more than $60 for PPTs and/or dealer sales...

This is just wrong in my mind. These two dealers (2 & 3) in particular know that they have us "over the barrel" and therefore our only option is to pay the exaggerated fees or spend the additional gas money to go drive "down below"..

On top of that, when I questioned dealer #2 & 3 regarding the ethics of overcharging they both had the same packaged answer:

"Gun dealers across the country are a dying breed. We are doing you a favor by just keeping our doors open. You should not complain that we need to make a few bucks to do so. After all, I am the one who has to file all the paper work and deal with the government. Be thankful that I am in business for you".

Granted they didn't both use exactly the same language, but the gist was the same...'shut up, pay what I tell you to pay and be thankful for it.'

I saw the form with info to supply to our FFLs but somehow I am not sure that will pull much weight. And like others have said before me, why deal with someone who want to be a jerk...well in this case there is not really a choice...

[billslugg]

I already get it that Dealer #1 is supposedly in the wrong and in violation of the FFl agreement by refusing to do ANY PPTs. What should the approach be with this particular individual to help him understand the error of his ways?

Good thread here. The CA law says that all dealers must process PPT's on legal firearms. The only exception is if they do not stock hand guns, then they are not required to do hand gun PPT's. All dealers must do all legal long guns, all hand gun dealers must do all legal guns. Am I wrong on this anyone?

Dealer #2 & 3 seem to be a little more difficult as they almost seem to be in collusion with each other knowing that anybody up here will have to drive at least 30 miles to the next nearest dealer and maybe even farther. This is not collusion, this is good business sense. There is a cost associated with the 30 mile drive to the next store. You have no right to demand all of that savings when you buy locally or you will have no local dealers. If you get none of the savings then the local store will get no business. The market will settle on a price somewhere in between.

To make things worse, one of the dealers recently sponsored a "gun show" where there were about 5 dealers and a number of accessory sellers. The official FFL of the show (Dealer #2) agreed to work with Dealer #3 to charge no more than $60 for PPTs and/or dealer sales... You might refer this information to the local DA for possible prosecution on anti trust grounds.

This is just wrong in my mind. These two dealers (2 & 3) in particular know that they have us "over the barrel" and therefore our only option is to pay the exaggerated fees or spend the additional gas money to go drive "down below".. Get used to it.

Granted they didn't both use exactly the same language, but the gist was the same...shut up, pay what I tell you to pay and be thankful for it.' Correct.

I saw the form with info to supply to our FFLs but somehow I am not sure that will pull much weight. And like others have said before me, why deal with someone who want to be a jerk...well in this case there is not really a choice... Wrong, you have two other choices. Go some where else to buy it, or get your own FFL.

[Slotcar]

Dealer #2 & 3 seem to be a little more difficult as they almost seem to be in collusion with each other knowing that anybody up here will have to drive at least 30 miles to the next nearest dealer and maybe even farther. This is not collusion, this is good business sense

?? ...

This is just wrong in my mind. These two dealers (2 & 3) in particular know that they have us "over the barrel" and therefore our only option is to pay the exaggerated fees or spend the additional gas money to go drive "down below".. Get used to it.

It's this sort of response that encourages others to be pacifists and sit back waiting to be taken advantage of... Maybe you are OK with feeling good about getting screwed but I am not!

It is also exactly why some FFLs seem to think they can get away with whatever they want!

Granted they didn't both use exactly the same language, but the gist was the same...shut up, pay what I tell you to pay and be thankful for it.' Correct.

Sounds to me like you are part of the #2 or #3 support team???

There has got to be a more supportive position out there than this???

I want all to know that I am in no way bashing FFLs. I AM THANKFUL that they are here to help us maintain our right to bear arms...but just like any other noble professions, there are those that harm the greater good...

[Chatterbox]

Both #2 and #3 are breaking the law. They can charge "storage" fee for time in excess of 10 day waiting period, but not if you come buy to pick up your weapon on the day the waiting period ends. #1 is breaking the law by refusing to do PPT of a handgun when he sells them on his own.

[BONECUTTER]

"Gun dealers across the country are a dying breed. We are doing you a favor by just keeping our doors open. You should not complain that we need to make a few bucks to do so. After all, I am the one who has to file all the paper work and deal with the government. Be thankful that I am in business for you".
...

This logic is so flawed. It's like having a mechanic who charges you for something you did not need to pay.

If they don't want to follow the rules they can start another type of company.

[Slotcar]

Both #2 and #3 are breaking the law. They can charge "storage" fee for time in excess of 10 day waiting period, but not if you come buy to pick up your weapon on the day the waiting period ends. #1 is breaking the law by refusing to do PPT of a handgun when he sells them on his own.

How does one go about handling a situation like this (other than not dealing with those particular FFLs)?

My son recently purchased a handgun from #2 (not consulting with me first because he wanted to "demonstrate his INDIVIDUAL right to bear arms) and got screwed on the fees. Other than telling him, "well, you shoulda asked me son...learned your lesson??" How do we stop this from happening in the future?? Dealing with the FFL and getting a fair shake and all???

[BONECUTTER]

How does one go about handling a situation like this (other than not dealing with those particular FFLs)?

My son recently purchased a handgun from #2 (not consulting with me first because he wanted to "demonstrate his INDIVIDUAL right to bear arms) and got screwed on the fees. Other than telling him, "well, you shoulda asked me son...learned your lesson??" How do we stop this from happening in the future?? Dealing with the FFL and getting a fair shake and all???

They can charge what ever fees they want unless its a FTF PPT.

I would tell them they are breaking the law and cite the penal code. They you can report them to the DOJ.

[Cokebottle]

#4 is the only one that is not in violation of the law.

[kemasa]

Those FFLs who are charging more than the fees limited by law are breaking the law. In this case, you have a couple of choices. First, you can do the PPT with them, use your credit card to pay the fees and the contest the amount after you pickup the firearm. You could also file a small claims court case against them. Another option, which may or may not work, is to call the CA DOJ. If you do the PPT and pay the money, it is much better evidence against the FFL.

Some can argue that the fees are too low, but the fact is that it is the law and FFLs are REQUIRED to follow the law or risk losing their ability to sell firearms. If the FFL does not like the low fee, they can go out of business or contact their elected officials and get the amount changed. It is not acceptable to just ignore the law. It also makes FFLs look bad.

Personally, I would consider posting the names of the places since if they are willing to break the law in one respect, they might break the law in other respects and therefore is a place to avoid.

BTW, you might also consider trying to find a FFL who does not have a store front and who is willing to follow the law.

[halifax]

Sue the dealer in small claims court for the excess fees and ask a DOJ inspector to be your expert witness. Kill two birds with one stone.

[kemasa]

How about suing the FFL and getting a subpoena for the DOJ inspector or the AG to act as a witness? Nothing like forcing them to attend and not taking a chance.

I think that suing would be the most fun, although the most time comsuming on both sides. Also, if you sue, sue for $5000 or the legal max for small claims court and then either reduce it at the time of trial or request the rest as punitive damages. The reason is that if the FFL does not show up, then the judgement would be for the full amount. Otherwise, they might not show up and then you have to try to collect a really small amount.

[stormy_clothing]

All this will accomplish is negative attention to gun dealers that's it. If they are charging more than they should don't go there. Trying to bend them to your will or wasting a couple days with small claims court is petty and dumb over 30 dollars that you don't have to spend anyway.

It's one thing to have issues during or after a transaction but not before.

[kemasa]

What it will accomplish is that those FFLs will either follow the law or go out of business, either option is a good thing in this case. Since CA law requires people do transfers through a FFL and the law limits the fees, those FFLs are stealing money from people. FFLs who sell handguns are required to do PPTs, it is a part of doing business. If they don't like it, they don't have to be a FFL.

If the person drives to another place, then that is going to cost them more money, as well as wear and tear on their vehicle.

Also, if one person pushes this issue with those FFLs, then all others who go there will also win. Some may not know that the fee is limited. There is short term thinking vs. long term thinking. Not doing anything is short term thinking.

[billslugg]

It's this sort of response that encourages others to be pacifists and sit back waiting to be taken advantage of... Maybe you are OK with feeling good about getting screwed but I am not!

You have a remedy in court for any illegal activity by any of these stores.

If they are not breaking the law, but merely charging more because of their remote location, then you can get back at them by shopping elsewhere, or if you were truly dedicated to doing something about the situation, filling out a form 7.

It is also exactly why some FFLs seem to think they can get away with whatever they want! Sounds to me like you are part of the #2 or #3 support team??? There has got to be a more supportive position out there than this??

You will find little support in these forums for price controls. This is a fairly conservative bunch. Nixon learned the hard way in '73 when he refused to pay the market price for oil. Nobody wanted to sell to the US when they could get a higher price on the market. Supplies dried up, we had gas lines. Control prices artificially and the end result is either a shortage or a surplus. The only spot on the demand/supply curve that does not produce either is where they intersect, that is the market price. Look at it as good old free market capitalism, if you think the price is too high, get a license, find your own source of guns and undercut the guy. If you think the price is too low, then take advantage of it all you can.

I want all to know that I am in no way bashing FFLs. I AM THANKFUL that they are here to help us maintain our right to bear arms...but just like any other noble professions, there are those that harm the greater good...

I take you at your word. I just think you must separate the two issues, illegal activity, and price gouging. Where there is a willing buyer and a willing seller, there cannot be such a thing as price gouging.

If you want to go out into the boonies and get the big city price, then you will be disappointed.

If you have evidence they colluded on prices, and if they have ever done an interstate activity in the course of their business, then they are in violation of Federal Law and you should go see the FBI. The mere facts that their prices are identical and are too high for your taste is not evidence. Evidence would be an overheard comment, a piece of paper with writing on it or perhaps a recorded conversation. Short of that they will not be interested in talking to you.

[zinfull]

They can charge what they want on their product. They can not charge what they want on FEES and TAXES. The state said we have to use an FFL to transfer and they can only charge $10 for the required process.

How about this. They charge what they want and We decide if we bother going through the paper work or just shake hands and exchange. Everyone is happy, but it is still illegal.

jerry