ATF and Cal DOJ Safe Affidavit

[advocatusdiaboli]

What is the real story here? I have assumed that, given that Cal firearms laws are far more restrictive than the federal laws, that Cal DOJ safe requirements would control. But I have heard rumors that the ATF doesn't recognize the Cal DOJ Safe Affidavit and if we use that to buy a firearm, we could be liable for not meeting the accompanying lock requirement? Can anyone with authority weigh in on this? Did I spend $1,000 plus on a gun safe only to have to buy a damn lock every time I buy a firearm anyway? The provision requires the lock not be over 30 days old and California restricts handgun sales to one every 30 days--interesting coincidence on dates isn't it? I'll bet the lobbyists for the lock industry are pleased. Probably had a celebratory golf conference on Oahu I'll bet.

[ugimports]

Read this for some helpful information:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C_Safes.2C_and_Laws

Basically both State and Federal requirements must be met.

And there's no requirement you keep the lock you purchase. Likewise, any new firearm that comes with one (most handguns) you wouldn't have to purchase a lock. The Gun Safe Affidavit is valid for long guns and receivers still, just not for pistols.

[jmlivingston]

Federal regulations require a locking device be delivered with every handgun purchase.

California law requires EITHER an "Approved" gun lock OR the safe affidavit for ALL firearm purchases.

Summary: All handgun purchases require a California approved gun lock. All longarms require either the gun lock or the safe affidavit.

John

[advocatusdiaboli]

And there's no requirement you keep the lock you purchase.

First, thanks for you answers, the acerbic text that follows is not directed at you all personally. But a guy has to vent.

Oh that's relief. It's not a waste of precious resources nor my money to buy a lock I have no use for. No not at all. And since the lock has to be less than 30 days old, there won't be much of a market for my used lock either so other purchasers cannot use my old lock and so will buy a new one. It won't be long before locks outnumber firearms--every used firearm will require yet another new lock. Did I just enter the Twilight Zone? No, an even more warped zone the USA and PRK. I feel so much safer now knowing Schlage and Master Lock are so much more profitable. I bet every crackhead and drug cartel hit man will be using those required locks I'll end up throwing away since I have a $1,000 gun safe per my affidavit. Yeah, Right. This nation has really lost it's way.

[ke6guj]

Oh that's relief. It's not a waste of precious resources nor my money to buy a lock I have no use for. No not at all. And since the lock has to be less than 30 days old, there won't be much of a market for my used lock either so other purchasers cannot use my old lock and so will buy a new one. It won't be long before locks outnumber firearms--every used firearm will require yet another new lock. Did I just enter the Twilight Zone? No, an even more warped zone the USA and PRK. I feel so much safer now knowing Schlage and Master Lock are so much more profitable. I bet every crackhead and drug cartel hit man will be using those required locks I'll end up throwing away since I have a $1,000 gun safe per my affidavit. Yeah, Right. This nation has really lost it's way.

nothing says the lock has to be new. There are some FFLs that will buy your used lock for a buck. They then sell them with a handgun purchase for a buck or two. And if I need a lock to buy a new handgun, I can buy one from a friend, get a receipt, and show the FFL the lock and receipt.

Or, I just buy the lock at the front counter just before I go to the gun counter to pick up the handgun, let them copy the receipt, pick up my handgun, and stop at the front counter to return the handgun lock before I even leave the store

[advocatusdiaboli]

Or, I just buy the lock at the front counter just before I go to the gun counter to pick up the handgun, let them copy the receipt, pick up my handgun, and stop at the front counter to return the handgun lock before I even leave the store

If I understand the wording right that's illegal and a violation. I thought I read somewhere in a Sticky in the this forums that the ATF specifically states the lock and the firearm must leave the store and be transported together. I assume they worded it that way to preclude he behavior you suggest. Can someone elaborate?

Read this for some helpful information: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...es.2C_and_Laws

Excellent--bookmarked. Thanks!

[tenpercentfirearms]

Or, I just buy the lock at the front counter just before I go to the gun counter to pick up the handgun, let them copy the receipt, pick up my handgun, and stop at the front counter to return the handgun lock before I even leave the store

Yeah, you must leave the store with my lock. The next time you come into the store and you bring your lock back, I have no problems with that. However, that day you are leaving with a lock.

[kemasa]

The BATF has not published the requirements, as required. The BATF lawyer also views the law as saying that the FFL must provide the lock or the safe, not just that the buyer has been provided with the lock or safe. This reading means that the buyer can not bring a lock (no receipt is needed for the Feds) nor a safe (as if they would).

I was told by a BATF agent that they will not enforce it unless they personally see the transaction. As was stated, there are no documentation requirements at all.

[halifax]

The BATF has not published the requirements, as required. The BATF lawyer also views the law as saying that the FFL must provide the lock or the safe, not just that the buyer has been provided with the lock or safe. This reading means that the buyer can not bring a lock (no receipt is needed for the Feds) nor a safe (as if they would).

I was told by a BATF agent that they will not enforce it unless they personally see the transaction. As was stated, there are no documentation requirements at all.

Do you have a written correspondence from that BATF lawyer?

Seems to me the language doesn't say the dealer is restricted on the source of the locking device, he just needs to be the one ensuring it is provided.

If a new handgun comes with a lock and the customer leaves with that lock, that's OK.

If a used handgun comes with a seller provided lock and the customer leaves with that lock. Is that OK?

If a handgun comes without a lock and the customer provides a lock to the dealer (following CA law) and the customer leaves with that lock and the handgun. That's not OK?

In all three cases above, the dealer is the one who is ultimately providing the lock with the handgun at the time of delivery regardless of source.

18 U.S.C. 922 (z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.— (1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun

[ke6guj]

If I understand the wording right that's illegal and a violation. I thought I read somewhere in a Sticky in the this forums that the ATF specifically states the lock and the firearm must leave the store and be transported together. I assume they worded it that way to preclude he behavior you suggest. Can someone elaborate?



Excellent--bookmarked. Thanks!

Yeah, you must leave the store with my lock. The next time you come into the store and you bring your lock back, I have no problems with that. However, that day you are leaving with a lock.

OK, next time, I'll put the handgun in the car before I return the lock. That way the handgun has left the store with a handgun lock.

[kemasa]

I talked to the BATF attorney on the phone and I do not have his email address, so there is nothing in writing.

"transferee is provided" is the key statement and it does not say who has to provide it and it does not say that the transferee can not provide it, but that is not how the BATF attorney is reading it. Since it mentions a safe, it is unreasonable to think that the FFL is going to provide a safe with each firearm purchase.

In talking to the BATF attorney, what I recall is that the buyer can not provide the lock or the safe. It is acceptable for the seller or the FFL to provide the lock. Now, one can ask what "provide" means.

In the cases listed, the FFL is not actually the one providing the lock. Only if the lock comes from the FFL is the FFL providing the lock, but my reading of the law does not require that the FFL actually provide the lock or safe, just that the FFL ensures that the transferee has been provided with a lock or safe.

To me, the really interesting thing is that the BATF letter stated that the rules would be published, yet that has not happened. I was also told that is required. I would like to know why as I suspect that would be an interesting story. It seems like this whole law has been ignored for some reason. Perhaps because the wording is so bad that the rules that they would like to claim would not be able to be justified under the law.

[Cokebottle]

And there's no requirement you keep the lock you purchase. Likewise, any new firearm that comes with one (most handguns) you wouldn't have to purchase a lock.

Depending on the FFL.
Some get wrapped up in the "receipt dated within the last 30 days" and seem to forget that their own receipt for the gun includes the provided lock.

Same for PPT.
If I'm PPTing a gun to you, and I "furnish" a lock, that meets Federal law.
To meet California law, all that has to happen is the FFL buys the lock from me for $5 and sells it to you for $5 (on paper, no need for money to change hands).

[redneckshootist]

I buy used locks, and I buy my locks back from the customers. Usually I buy the lock back within seconds after the gun leaves the shop.