AR pistol lower question

[bubbapug1]

bdsmchs is correct, and I have done this.

I agree, he usually is.

[dachan]

The question was, does an AR receiver have to say "pistol" on it in order to be legally built into a pistol?

The answer is positively and absolutely not.

Again, totally 100% agree.

Federal felony conviction? Really? That's just stupid.

But then again how much more will a Pistol marked receiver cost you vs. how much will possession of an unregistered SBR (a federal felony) cost you?

I just checked all of my handguns. I looked on all of my revolvers, and my 1911's, my Mark II and even my Sig Mosquito. None of them are marked "pistol".

So you're saying that every single one of my pistols is asking for trouble?

No, we're saying it's easy to get into trouble building a AR pistol from a rifle receiver. And, unlike AR receivers, I not aware that of any of those frames are commonly used to build rifles.

Once a pistol lower, it can be built as a rifle, and then it can never be a pistol again. No such thing as "once a pistol, always a pistol". More BS.

Never said "once a pistol, always a pistol", in fact it is rather easy to legally convert a pistol to a rifle; just mount a >16" barrel then a stock. However, you better like your pistol to be a rifle because we are implying "once a rifle, always a rifle". But that's not even really true, here's how to legally convert a rifle into a pistol (you have to first make it into a SBR):

Before starting, you'll need to make sure your home state does not prohibit short-barrelled rifles. Presuming all is hunkey dorey on the home front, you will do the following:
1. submit a BATF Form 1 in duplicate..."Tax-Paid Application to Make and Register a Firearm" which includes:
a. your name,
b. your address,
c. a physical description of the new SBR (make, model, s/n, bbl and OAL length)
d. reason for making (put whatever you want in here as long as it's not something "for shooting orphans holding blind kittens" many folks just put "for all lawful purposes" and leave it at that)
e. your signature
f. your CLEO's (Chief Law Enformcement Officer) signature...county sheriff, Chief of Police, Commonwealth's Atty, judge, etc...
g. a 2"x2" recent color photograph of yourself affixed to each Form 1

2. submit duplicate sets of your finger prints,
3. submit a Form 5320.20 Certificate of Compliance (wherein you attest to the fact that you are a US citizen)
4. submit a check for $200 (the tax to make and register an NFA device.)

You can get the necessary forms for free by contacting the BATF. Call/write/email and they'll send 'em to you at no cost.

Mail it off, wait, and once you receive your approved Form 1 back with that little blue stamp affixed to it, whip out hacksaw/pipe cutter/bandsaw/etc... and start making your new toy. Don't forget to stamp it with your name, city, and s/n.

Here's a link to the BATF publication 5300.4, the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, containing the relevant laws:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

[dachan]

You're half right. FFL's are supposed to log in receivers as "receivers". There is no such thing as a "rifle receiver" or "pistol frame". They are all receivers.

Yes, legally we only need to enter "pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame, etc." in the BB and Box 29 of the 4473 but in Fall '09 we were instructed to specify "rifle receiver" or "pistol frame" for better clarification.

The ATF has warned that a receiver that will be built into a pistol should never be described as "rifle" or "rifle receiver". But that's actually just ATF opinion, and not really law.....You never have to prove the lineage. It's up to a prosecutor to prove otherwise. If you've got a DROS that says a particular serial number is a pistol, then it's a pistol. Oh, it'll also be registered to you, so that's one more point in your favor.

Not really law, but written opinion of the ATF which can be entered as evidence in a court of law (emphasis added):

October 1, 1992


Firearms Technical Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Mass. Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Sirs:

The Greensboro, NC BATF Compliance Office suggested that I write to
you for information on the following point.

I am interested on whether it is possible to have a commercially
manufactured rifle receiver changed to be legally considered to be a handgun
receiver, and how this can be done. The Compliance Office said that this
might be possible via a "Letter of Determination", but advised me to write
to you about the criteria and procedures.

For example, if a person has a rifle receiver and wishes to have it
built into a rifle-caliber handgun suitable for steel silhouette target
shooting, comparable to the bolt action Remington XP-100 handgun. I
understand that the serial number of this receiver is recorded as being for a
rifle. Could this person have this receiver's serial number considered to be
a handgun receiver? If so, what procedures and paperwork would be
necessary.

Sincerely,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oct 29 1992
Dear Mr. XXXXX:

This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely your,
(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

[ugimports]

Yes, legally we only need to enter "pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame, etc." in the BB and Box 29 of the 4473 but in Fall '09 we were instructed to specify "rifle receiver" or "pistol frame" for better clarification.

Can you send me a copy of this notice? I don't know if I received this one. My email address is in my signature. When I was getting all set up my ATF inspector / interview person didn't mention the distinction of pistol frame vs receiver when she explained the 4473 to me in July 09.

Thanks,

[CHS]

Yes, legally we only need to enter "pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame, etc." in the BB and Box 29 of the 4473 but in Fall '09 we were instructed to specify "rifle receiver" or "pistol frame" for better clarification.

Where on earth are you coming up with all this bogus information?

There is no such thing as a "rifle" receiver or "pistol" frame.

Receivers and frames are just that, receivers and frames. They are NOT rifles or pistols, and they can be utilized in the manufacture of EITHER rifles or pistols. But they are not rifles, they are not shotguns, they are not pistols, they are not "long guns", they are simple title 1 "other" firearms.

The ATF would never instruct anyone to specify "rifle receiver" or "pistol frame" for a receiver or frame that's not legally either a rifle or pistol.

Not really law, but written opinion of the ATF which can be entered as evidence in a court of law (emphasis added):

That letter has absolutely nothing to do with this argument.

[ugimports]

...
Not really law, but written opinion of the ATF which can be entered as evidence in a court of law (emphasis added):

Regarding your emphasis on: "Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity."

This is sort of counter your argument. Anyone purchasing a stripped lower from a dealer can contact the manufacturer who will indeed say "Yes we sold that as a stripped lower and didn't pay FET on it".

This would then mean that any stripped lower can be used to make a pistol regardless of how it was previously DROSd as LONG as it wasn't sold as a complete rifle at some point and then stripped back to be sold as a stripped receiver (in my opinion).

Your example letter also references a rifle receiver which would also lead the ATF response to believe that it was already used to create a rifle vs. being a virgin stripped receiver as was being discussed originally in this thread.

[Cokebottle]

So to sum it up...you can use a regular lower legally to build a pistol correct?

I do remember the ATF letter posted on ARF in which the poster asked about converting an AR lower back and forth to a rifle and pistol. The answer was negative on switching back and forth...I'll try to find the letter.

My question was specific to using a non-marked pistol lower for a pistol build.

Once a rifle, always a rifle, both for BATF and DOJ.

The issue is building a new pistol from a stripped lower.
CA DROS only allows for "Handgun" and "Long Gun", while the 4473 allows for "other".
CA DROS can't be written as "handgun" since a stripped lower is neither rostered nor roster-exempt.

[target]

very interesting topic here. sorry if i sound like an idiot but from what you guys are saying is that if i were to build an ar pistol all i would need is to get a stripped lower and tell the ffl to dros it as a pistol then it's all legal? but last time i bought a stripped lower and inquired if i could build an ar pistol with it the guy at the gun store told me no that would be illegal.

[Cokebottle]

very interesting topic here. sorry if i sound like an idiot but from what you guys are saying is that if i were to build an ar pistol all i would need is to get a stripped lower and tell the ffl to dros it as a pistol then it's all legal? but last time i bought a stripped lower and inquired if i could build an ar pistol with it the guy at the gun store told me no that would be illegal.

The dealer can not DROS the stripped lower as a "handgun" because of the California "Safe Handgun Roster" unless you are a cop or some other roster-exempt person.

[ugimports]

very interesting topic here. sorry if i sound like an idiot but from what you guys are saying is that if i were to build an ar pistol all i would need is to get a stripped lower and tell the ffl to dros it as a pistol then it's all legal? but last time i bought a stripped lower and inquired if i could build an ar pistol with it the guy at the gun store told me no that would be illegal.

Unfortunately it isn't this simple. If the stripped lower was DROS'd as a handgun you would be unable to receive it because it would not be on the DOJ Handgun Roster (http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/). I suppose this opens up some possibilities for roster exempt folks to get stripped lowers that are DROSd from the start as handguns though.

[Cokebottle]

Unfortunately it isn't this simple. If the stripped lower was DROS'd as a handgun you would be unable to receive it because it would not be on the DOJ Handgun Roster (http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/). I suppose this opens up some possibilities for roster exempt folks to get stripped lowers that are DROSd from the start as handguns though.

As well as new residents bringing in stripped lowers.

If an AZ resident bought a stripped lower in AZ, never installed a buttstock or 16"+ upper, and brought it with him when he moved to California, he could then build a pistol from it, or he could FTF/PPT that lower to someone else and it would be legal for the dealer to DROS that lower as a handgun because the FTF/PPT transfer is roster-exempt.

Likewise, an out of state intrafamilial transfer.... My father lives in Texas. It would be legal for him to gift me a stripped lower DROS'd into CA as a handgun... but this only applies to son/daughter-mother/father-grandmother/grandfather.


There ARE a few ways to build up an AR pistol in CA... but not many.

[CHS]

I suppose this opens up some possibilities for roster exempt folks to get stripped lowers that are DROSd from the start as handguns though.

Yeah, I DROS lowers as handguns all the time to LEO's. I've got one customer that just picked up a 3rd one today.

[ugimports]

Yeah, I DROS lowers as handguns all the time to LEO's. I've got one customer that just picked up a 3rd one today.

On a tangent note, in regards to the thread about becoming an LEO for the purposes of CCW, would those same LEO credentials allow one to bypass the CA DOJ Roster?