Changing a DROS once it's submitted?

[golfrj]

Hello, My question pertains to changing a firearm once the DROS has been submitted, if I buy a rifle that becomes unavailable can the DROS be changed to another Firearm without penalty? I seem to remember that it could be resubmitted? Thanks for your opinions here...

[Mike's Custom]

Yes, all the DOJ knows is that one Longgun was sold. As long as the dealer has the gun in stock at time of pick up. Same goes for the number of longguns. If you buy one longgun and then decide you want that 10/22 or other longgun the FFL can just add that to the DROS by changing the number of longguns purchased on the DROS but the longgun must be in stock at the time of the change and the original firearm must not have been picked up. The DROS for a longgun is a background check only.

[REH]

The DROS only shows that a long gun was bought. So if the one you bought is not available you can buy another long gun.

[golfrj]

The DROS only shows that a long gun was bought. So if the one you bought is not available you can buy another long gun.

How about buying a pistol in place of the rifle if it's on the list? Trying to make up my mind here.. Thanks Guys...

[halifax]

Nope. A long gun DROS is not a handgun DROS.

[dachan]

Yes, all the DOJ knows is that one Longgun was sold. As long as the dealer has the gun in stock at time of pick up. Same goes for the number of longguns. If you buy one longgun and then decide you want that 10/22 or other longgun the FFL can just add that to the DROS by changing the number of longguns purchased on the DROS but the longgun must be in stock at the time of the change and the original firearm must not have been picked up. The DROS for a longgun is a background check only.

I believe it is not possible to change the number of long guns purchased on the DROS. The DROS entry system does not allow this change. However, DOJ auditors have been saying that it is allowed to decrease the number of long guns picked up, but not increase the number once the DROS has been submitted.

[Mike's Custom]

Nope. A long gun DROS is not a handgun DROS.

Correct, longguns use a different DROS and do not record make model or ser #.

I believe it is not possible to change the number of long guns purchased on the DROS. The DROS entry system does not allow this change. However, DOJ auditors have been saying that it is allowed to decrease the number of long guns picked up, but not increase the number once the DROS has been submitted.

I have been told several times over the years, including at one of the DOJ seminars, that the number of long guns could be changed as long as it was done the way I posted above. LOng guns are background checks only and if hte customer has not taken possion of the first firearm/s then you can add to the DROS by marking a single line through the number on the DROS and writing in the correct number being purchased and picked up. You also have to add to the 4473.

[kemasa]

If the number of long guns is increased on the same day as the DROS, then it can be done, but otherwise not.

[Bobshouse]

When DROSing a long gun one of the first things asked is how many. Even though you do not need to enter serial numbers, this number of firearms DROSed prints on your DROS form.

Also on the 4473 you are required to list each firearm being sold with its serial number. Right below that block is another asking for the "Total Number of Firearms" where you have to write in the amount on that form.

When ATF comes a lookin, hopefully your DROS numbers match up with your 4473 numbers or you get a write up, maybe worse.

[halifax]

When DROSing a long gun one of the first things asked is how many. Even though you do not need to enter serial numbers, this number of firearms DROSed prints on your DROS form.

Also on the 4473 you are required to list each firearm being sold with its serial number. Right below that block is another asking for the "Total Number of Firearms" where you have to write in the amount on that form.

When ATF comes a lookin, hopefully your DROS numbers match up with your 4473 numbers or you get a write up, maybe worse.

My ATF inspector has never looked at my DROS paperwork. And my BOF inspector has never asked to see a 4473. I suppose they could but neither has.

[FortCourageArmory]

My ATF inspector has never looked at my DROS paperwork. And my BOF inspector has never asked to see a 4473. I suppose they could but neither has.

I've been told now by both DOJ and ATF auditors that they do not look at the other's forms. More importantly, neither had jurisdiction over how the other's forms are completed.

[tenpercentfirearms]

If the number of long guns is increased on the same day as the DROS, then it can be done, but otherwise not.

Interesting. I quote kemasa from a thread dated 11/20/2009.

A single sale means just that. Once the person leaves the store, that single sale ends.

So now as long as the person comes back into the store on the same day then it is still a single sale?

Also, do you have a reference to either a transaction concluding on the same day or being closed when the person leaves the store? Just curious. I won't be responding to anything you say. I just wanted to ask those questions.

When DROSing a long gun one of the first things asked is how many. Even though you do not need to enter serial numbers, this number of firearms DROSed prints on your DROS form.

Also on the 4473 you are required to list each firearm being sold with its serial number. Right below that block is another asking for the "Total Number of Firearms" where you have to write in the amount on that form.

When ATF comes a lookin, hopefully your DROS numbers match up with your 4473 numbers or you get a write up, maybe worse.

If you store your 4473s and DROS separate, the DOJ has no business looking at the 4473 and the ATF has no business looking at the DROS. If you store them together, I guess they could take a look at that if they were bored. Think of it as the plain sight rule. If you show it to them, they can ask questions. If you don't, how will they know and also why would they care?

[kemasa]

It is difficult to track if a FFL added long guns after the DROS was submitted and on another day, but that does not make it legal to do so, just extremely hard to get caught.

If the DOJ decides to go through all your records because of other issues, then they will be able to find it. Also, if they check and see that often the number that you enter for a long gun DROS in lower than the firearms transferred, then that might raise flags and cause you problems.

The PC states that multiple long guns can be done on a single DROS, it also says that it needs to be a single sale, transfer or loan. Some argue what a single sale is, but in another section in the PC it mentions the same day. For a handgun, the same day makes sense. For a long gun, a single sale is harder to claim to be able to be done at two separate times and still be a single sale, especially if the second firearm is sold after the DROS was submitted.

Personally, I tell people to decide before the DROS is submitted.

[kemasa]

It is mentioned in the PC, 12076 I believe, about the same day. I don't personally consider that to be a single sale, but the same day is the best you can get away with.

[tenpercentfirearms]

It is mentioned in the PC, 12076 I believe, about the same day. I don't personally consider that to be a single sale, but the same day is the best you can get away with.

PC 12076 states

(i)(1) Only one fee shall be charged pursuant to this section for a single transaction on the same date for the sale of any number of firearms that are not pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person or for the taking of possession of those firearms.
(2) In a single transaction on the same date for the delivery of any number of firearms that are pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, the department shall charge a reduced fee pursuant to this section for the second and subsequent firearms that are part of that transaction.

This part of the penal code does not seem to be addressing when a transaction ends, it actually seems to be stating the DOJ can only charge dealers once and once only for any number of long guns and once for handguns and a reduced fee for additional handguns.

However, the language in (i) does say or for the taking of possession of those firearms. So it seems that taking possession of any number of long guns after your ten days is limited to a single charge.

Again, this seems to be a limitation on the DOJ's power, not a limit on the rights of dealers and citizens as it specifically states a limitation on fees, fees charged by the DOJ for running DROS.

To believe this limits the rights of dealers to add additional long guns or to even define a "single transactions" seems like a long reach. If it didn't say, "Only one fee shall be charged pursuant to this section", I might agree. However, it doesn't. It doesn't say, "Dealers must submit a new fee after submitting DROS." It doesn't say, "Dealers must submit a new fee on the day after DROS is submitted." It doesn't say any of those things.

It only states one fee may be charged in a single day or when taking possession of those firearms. So if I collect the DROS on pick up day, then only one fee can be collected and only one fee collected on as many long guns as you want.

In hindsight, the section also might be talking about gun dealers. Maybe it is limiting what we can charge customers. Also note that section (i)(2) states on the same day of delivery, not sale. So even if you started multiple handguns on different days, on the day of delivery, the department shall charge a reduced fee. That leads me to believe this section is referring to the DOJ and not to dealers. Second, it also seems to be indicated that handgun transactions don't actually end at DROS start, but end on the date of delivery.

Another way to think about it is the reason they don't address the date of delivery for long gun sales is because a long gun sale does not end until it is delivered. That is why they left that language out and also mention "for the taking of possession". Since handgun data must be submitted at DROS start, you can't just haphazardly change handgun sales data. However, this penal code is clear that the single fee and reduced fee must be limited on the date of delivery. Since you can change long gun data at will during the background check, the sale is not actually terminated until the day of pick up. In concert with clear federal laws that no long gun can be added after the seller signs the 4473, are we making an incorrect assumption and ignoring the fact that a single transaction on the same date might be the day of delivery? I believe we might be.

No where in this section does it state the single transaction is on the DROS start date. In fact, it clearly says for handguns that the department shall charge a reduced fee on the date of delivery. A new bigger and more important question is has the DOJ been over charging in clear violation of the penal code by determining their fees on the date of DROS start and not the date of delivery?

Do you have any clearer penal code definition on how long a single transaction lasts? It seems to me, I quite possibly discovered that a single transaction actually ends when the firearms are physically handed over to the customer when they take possession or delivery and not at DROS start. This also logically makes sense since a person can be denied and so if the DROS start was the true dealer record of sale, then we wouldn't have the authority to deprive citizens of their purchased property. It appears to me the transaction does not end until possession or delivery as 30 day background checks can expire, driver's licenses could be expired or invalid, and people might be prohibited from purchasing. It seems to me that really we are taking a deposit on goods to be delivered, not selling guns at DROS start.

In fact the only thing that makes this reading of the penal code slightly difficult is the fact that the DOJ asks the number of long guns per transaction on DROS. Again, PC 12077(c)(1) through (3) makes no mention of collecting this data for the electronic register. It appears the DOJ might be asking for it in order to justify the assumption that the start of DROS is the single transaction, when the Penal Code makes not statement it does. In fact, the penal code might be suggesting the delivery date or the taking of possession is actually the termination of the single transaction. Very interesting indeed as it might imply that the DOJ is attempting to wrestle more DROS dollars from the citizens of California outside their authority.

Did you have a clearer definition of how long a single transaction lasts or now more importantly, when does a single transaction begin or end?