New to FFL usage

[SingleAction]

Dear FFL guys,
I'm so sorry for the dumb questions, but I'm curious about something.

I found a buyer for 2 of my handguns, and we agreed on a price. That individual sent me a money order, and then I mailed the guns (UPS ground) to an FFL dealer he recommended (within California).

After the FFL received the guns, I phoned him.

He mentioned that "everything is done" on my part. There were no forms I needed to sign or anything.

Is this right?
Shouldn't I have to sign a transfer for guns?

I know I should have checked these things earlier...

I'm sure everything is fine.

Thanks a lot.

[ke6guj]

nope, AFAIK, you are done, since it would be transfered as a regular transfer, not a PPT transfer.

If it was sold out of state, I'd recommend that you file a "no longer in possession" form to inform CADOJ that you sold it, but the records should get updated when the CA FFL DROSes them to the new buyer.

[SingleAction]

Hey thanks for your reply!


I'm so happy to know that everything is done and that I didn't need to fill out any forms.

I was just worried a little that's all...

Thanks for clarifying everything!

[ke6guj]

thinking about it more, since you don't know if the FFL will actually DROS it to the buyer, I'd personally send in a NLIP anyways, and list the FFL as the recipient.

[paul0660]

Also should have confirmed the FFL was current, and I guess the handguns weren't declared since they went ground......


Important thing is, you got paid. Here is the no longer in possession form referred to: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/BOF4546NLIP0209.pdf

[ke6guj]

If it was sent to an FFL, there was no legal state or federal requirement that they be declared. And since it was an intrastate transfer, and not an interstate transfer, declaration was not legally required anyways.

[paul0660]

Correct. I was only assuming they were not because the UPS counterman didn't make them go overnight.

Nothing wrong with not declaring until you try to make a claim.

[greyfell]

If it was sent to an FFL, there was no legal state or federal requirement that they be declared. And since it was an intrastate transfer, and not an interstate transfer, declaration was not legally required anyways.

Would you please clarify the suggested way to handle an intrastate handgun transfer?

I am trying to buy an approved handgun from a SoCal member, and I am in NorCal. When he and I talked this evening, he thought he'd have to ship it to my FFL, and I suggested he have his FFL ship to my FFL. He's going to check with his FFL tomorrow, but, in the meantime, what do you think is the least troublesome way to handle this exchange?


stephen

[dachan]

If it was sent to an FFL, there was no legal state or federal requirement that they be declared. And since it was an intrastate transfer, and not an interstate transfer, declaration was not legally required anyways.

There is no federal or state law requiring you declare the contents of a shipment to be firearms whether you are shipping interstate or intrastate when using a common carrier such as UPS or FedEx. It is only the rules of the companies that require you to declare that you are shipping firearms. And once you declare you are shipping a handgun, their rules require you to ship it by Air. Here is one of the best FAQ sheets on shipping firearms. Note that in CA all modern handgun and long gun shipments can only be received by licensed dealers.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Support/SupportFAQView.aspx?faqid=1118

thinking about it more, since you don't know if the FFL will actually DROS it to the buyer, I'd personally send in a NLIP anyways, and list the FFL as the recipient.

Except for a PPT, you should always file NLIP form when you sell your handgun. In your case in which you shipped it to a in-state dealer, when that dealer submits the DROS as a dealer sale, the DOJ will receive the handgun information but not your information. The DROS system is not setup to take the handgun out of the previous owners name when putting it into the buyers name in the case of a dealer sale, only for PPT's. CA FFL's are required by the DOJ to report all acquistions of handguns from an individual so that the handgun can be taken out of the owners name, but not all FFL's do this.

[kemasa]

There IS a federal law regarding notification of firearms with respect to shipping.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

[dachan]

There is no federal or state law requiring you declare the contents of a shipment to be firearms whether you are shipping interstate or intrastate when using a common carrier such as UPS or FedEx.

Thank you Ken, I stand corrected.

[ugimports]

... CA FFL's are required by the DOJ to report all acquistions of handguns from an individual so that the handgun can be taken out of the owners name, but not all FFL's do this.

Are you referring to used handguns for dealer sale? Or when you receive a handgun from any individual even if holding for a transfer?

For example, if I have a customer purchasing a handgun from southern california. The seller ships to me, I log it in. Then after 10 day wait it's logged out to new owner. Is that when the handgun acquisition form is supposed to be used?

When I asked the DOJ about that form they said I only had to use it when I was receiving guns into inventory to sell / purchasing used handguns. Maybe my question was not clear to them though when I asked it.

ETA: This is also at the top of the form:

This report must be completed and submitted by firearms dealers on the date of receipt of a handgun intended as
merchandise in the firearms dealer's inventory, when acquired from a non-licensed private party. Firearms dealers who also are licensed as secondhand dealers are not required to complete or submit this report. [12071(b)(18) PC]

emphasis added by me

[ke6guj]

Would you please clarify the suggested way to handle an intrastate handgun transfer?

I am trying to buy an approved handgun from a SoCal member, and I am in NorCal. When he and I talked this evening, he thought he'd have to ship it to my FFL, and I suggested he have his FFL ship to my FFL. He's going to check with his FFL tomorrow, but, in the meantime, what do you think is the least troublesome way to handle this exchange?


stephen

what you need to do is talk to YOUR FFL and see if he will accept a firearms shipment from a non-licensee. It is legal for him to do so, but not all FFLs will do so. If he will, then the buyer can just box it up, with a copy of his ID/DL and ship it to your FFL. Thats all he needs to do.

If your FFL won't accept shipments from non-licensees, then either find another FFL who will, or else the buyer will need to then have to have it shipped from an FFL to your FFL.

[ke6guj]

There IS a federal law regarding notification of firearms with respect to shipping.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

The FAQ is misleading. It does not properly explain the actual law.

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

The bolded section above exempts shipments to those listed people from needing to be declared. I've been told that ATF has been repeatedly informed of the "error" in their FAQ but that they apparantly haven't felt hte need to fix it.

And there is even a ATF letter on the matter that confirms that it is not a violation of federal law if you don't notify the carrier that it is a firearms shipment when you are shipping to a licensee.


Yes, UPS/Fedex can require that you declare it, and refuse you an insurance payout if the shipments gets lost/damaged if you didn't declare it, but it is not a violation of federal or state law if you don't notify.

[greyfell]

what you need to do is talk to YOUR FFL and see if he will accept a firearms shipment from a non-licensee. It is legal for him to do so, but not all FFLs will do so. If he will, then the buyer can just box it up, with a copy of his ID/DL and ship it to your FFL. Thats all he needs to do.

If your FFL won't accept shipments from non-licensees, then either find another FFL who will, or else the buyer will need to then have to have it shipped from an FFL to your FFL.

Jack,

What my FFL told me this afternoon agrees with what you just said. It is the simplest and involves the least amount of fees. I pm'd the seller and gave him the same information.

Thank you very much!

Stephen