Scheduling or refusing to perform PPT's

[dachan]

Most dealers in the area seem to be severely the limiting hours that they will perform PPT's, BAGV, Reed's, Target Masters, even Roger Relics. Yet it's been repeated many times on this forum and even on the DOJ website that dealers cannot refuse a request to perform a PPT, and it is illegal to restrict hours; i.e., http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=272762

Once again... ILLEGAL to refuse. I suggest people print this out and hand it to the fools/criminals at The Stockade.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9

Does anyone know where in the PC does it state dealers must perform PPT's upon request?

PC12072 (d) states all PPT's must go through a dealer.

PC12082 covers the process of a PPT and maximum fees.

PC12071 covers licensing requirements for a dealer.

I can't find where any of these specifically require a dealer to perform a PPT upon request.

[dachan]

from the link you quoted, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9

I also found this, http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12082.html

That's the better one to go with.

The AG FAQ has a bit of FUD in it in some areas (not saying it does here, but that FAQ is not immune from having some "made up" laws and omissions).

1) AG FAQ is not PC and has no relevancy in a court of law.

2) No where in PC12082 does it state a dealer cannot refuse a request to perform a PPT.

[iRIGHTi]

I did a PPT of a M1919A4 USGI 30 cal beltfed through Turners here in LB/Signal Hill a few years back. I called 1st to let them know what I was bringin for a PPT and it was, "sure no problem". I show up with the 1919, jaws dropped, and it was, "no way that is legal here in CA, that's an AW, we cannot do anything to transfer that....etc". BS I told them. It's a 100% legal semi-auto. Pulled out my CA DOJ approval papers, BATF approval letter, and the copy of PC12072 which REQUIRES FFL'S as a condition of having a license, to perform PTT's for private individuals. Their youngsters behind the counter called the old guy manager over, he reads my paperwork and says, "no problem, good thing you got your paperwork cause we wouldn't have known." Then they all were cool and started asking 1919/beltfed in CA being ok Q's. Ended up helping a guy find a buy of 1919a4.com. Turned into a good FFL training op.

If the FFL sells a type of firearm you want to do a PPT on, they MUST process the request. Whether or not it goes through is up to the DROS.

Q&A: I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

a.For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
b.For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of $10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.
(PC section 12072(d))

[dachan]

I did a PPT of a M1919A4 USGI 30 cal beltfed through Turners here in LB/Signal Hill a few years back. I called 1st to let them know what I was bringin for a PPT and it was, "sure no problem". I show up with the 1919, jaws dropped, and it was, "no way that is legal here in CA, that's an AW, we cannot do anything to transfer that....etc". BS I told them. It's a 100% legal semi-auto. Pulled out my CA DOJ approval papers, BATF approval letter, and the copy of PC12072 which REQUIRES FFL'S as a condition of having a license, to perform PTT's for private individuals. Their youngsters behind the counter called the old guy manager over, he reads my paperwork and says, "no problem, good thing you got your paperwork cause we wouldn't have known." Then they all were cool and started asking 1919/beltfed in CA being ok Q's. Ended up helping a guy find a buy of 1919a4.com. Turned into a good FFL training op.

If the FFL sells a type of firearm you want to do a PPT on, they MUST process the request. Whether or not it goes through is up to the DROS.

Q&A: I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

a.For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
b.For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of $10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.
(PC section 12072(d))

You just quoted the AG FAQ again, it has no relevancy what so ever to my question. Where in the penal code does it state that dealers are required to perform a PPT upon request?

[iRIGHTi]

it's not going to be in the penal code. it's part of the business license requirements for FFL's. you sell handguns, you must perform PPT's of handguns. you sell rifles, you must perform PPT's for rifles. both=both. max they can charge is a $10 service fee on top of the $35 DROS. period. it's a FFL business license requirement for having an FFL, not a penal code issue.

[dachan]

it's not going to be in the penal code. it's part of the business license requirements for FFL's. you sell handguns, you must perform PPT's of handguns. you sell rifles, you must perform PPT's for rifles. both=both. max they can charge is a $10 service fee on top of the $35 DROS. period. it's a FFL business license requirement for having an FFL, not a penal code issue.

What do you mean "business license requirements"? If it's not part of the penal code, then it is not against the law. The PC is the law. If you're going to report a dealer for breaking the law, there needs to be a law to break.

Besides a retailers business license is issued by the local municipality. So you're saying the city is going take away a dealers business license for not doing a PPT when you walk in the door? In addition, written into every city code is a regulation requiring dealers perform PPT's upon request?

PC12071 covers all the licensing requirements defining a dealer in CA and it does not state a dealer is required to perform PPT's upon request. PC12082 stipulates the maximum fee and says any licensed dealer who does not sell or inventory firearms does not need to perform PPT's, but does not state a dealer is required to perform PPT's upon request.

[tenpercentfirearms]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=117004&highlight=private

[dachan]

Found it, CA Code of Regulations 4033. Next time a dealer refuses to process a PPT upon request or posts limited hours, you can quote CCR 4033. Properly adopted regulations have the force of law. Just make sure your request to the dealer is in writing, contain all the terms of the transaction and be signed by the seller and buyer.

[kemasa]

Please see:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

then read:

12082.
...
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned
the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,
and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the
requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and
12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.

So, the penal code says that the AG shall adopt the regulations, which means that those regulations are specified in the PC.

Then, look at 12071(b)(5):

(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the
following prohibitions and requirements:
...
(5) The licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and
promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Section
12082.

So, yes, it seems clear that it is in the PC and your ability to be a FFL can be revoked if you do not do follow what the AG says.

If you expect the PC to say specifically that the dealer can not limit the time for the PPT, you need to realize that this is the law and the wording and chain to all the parts are hard to follow.

[iRIGHTi]

i knew FFL's were required to provide PPT services as one of the conditions of their having a license. so just much crap to read through to find it!