Missing Firearms Shipment Approval Number

[ugimports]

I just received a firearm from an out of state FFL to transfer to a customer. They were missing the FSA number. I've already left them a message requesting it. My question is, if they for whatever reason decide not to give me one what am I supposed to do with the firearm?

As of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows.

According to the DOJ the penalty is imposed on the shipper, but I'm not sure how the CA DOJ imposes penalties on people outside the state of CA. In any case will I get written up for not having the number even though I'm not the one required to generate it?

[halifax]

If the dealer got the number but forgot to send the letter, all you need is the number (the hardcopy is not necessary) but you could ask him to fax it. If he didn't get the number, remind him that his FFL may be in jeopardy for not following the ATF requirement to comply with the laws of the state where he shipped it to. If that doesn't work, I suppose you will need to return the firearm to him and keep very clear records that you did. I doubt you would get in trouble unless you kept the firearm in CA without the approval.

[ugimports]

If the dealer got the number but forgot to send the letter, all you need is the number (the hardcopy is not necessary) but you could ask him to fax it. If he didn't get the number, remind him that his FFL may be in jeopardy for not following the ATF requirement to comply with the laws of the state where he shipped it to. If that doesn't work, I suppose you will need to return the firearm to him and keep very clear records that you did. I doubt you would get in trouble unless you kept the firearm in CA without the approval.

So should I probably not start the DROS for the customer until I get the situation cleared up with the shipper? I guess it would be bad form to sign up for them if they were unwilling, eh? I don't think it would be illegal because all that is required is:

You will need the following information from your valid Federal Firearms License (FFL):

* Name of Business/individual/corporation
* FFL expiration date or date from the Letter of Continuing Authorization (LOA) [LOA information]
* Physical address
* Business e-mail address
* Telephone number
* Facsimile number (if applicable)
* Name of a contact person (The contact person's name appears on the Firearms Shipment Approval letter generated by CFLC)

If you have all the required information, please press the "Continue" button to proceed.

I have all their info ....

I think I'd be doing them a favor

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In any case I'm hoping they just forgot to include the number ...

[halifax]

So should I probably not start the DROS for the customer until I get the situation cleared up with the shipper? I guess it would be bad form to sign up for them if they were unwilling, eh? I don't think it would be illegal because all that is required is:



I have all their info ....

I think I'd be doing them a favor

---
In any case I'm hoping they just forgot to include the number ...

I wouldn't start the DROS. I'll defer to what others say about "signing-up" for them.

[tenpercentfirearms]

WOAH! Stop.

First, DO NOT SIGN THEM UP! Honestly, I wouldn't even joke about that.

And I am not sure where you read the shipper would be liable. If you sign that firearm into your book without a CFLC, you committed a misdemeanor. Not the out of stater. There isn't a darn thing they can do to the out of stater.

So relax, it is this simple.

Contact the out of stater and inform them they have to supply you with a CFLC number. See what their reaction is. It might be a simple, "Oh, we forget, I will get that right to you."

If they act like they have no clue, then proceed with caution. Tell them that unfortunately our stupid state is trying to dissuade that FFL from doing lawful commerce with the customers of our state with one more hurdle to jump through. Say the good news is that signing up for this is easy and I can help you do it over the phone right now in less than five minutes and from here on out this process will take less than 2 minutes to complete per gun transaction. I would highly recommend not stating they could get busted for not doing it as they might truly scare them away.

I like to tell them that they can submit the number to me anyway they want and they can just read it off to me over the phone right now.

If they get cold feet and decide they don't want to screw with it, notify them that you cannot accept the firearm without committing a misdemeanor and you will be returning it. Then let your customer know what happened and go from there.

So if you don't get a number, don't worry. Just don't log it in until you do. If you get near the seven days the feds want you to log things in by, then you might want to consider sending it back.

Do not log it in until you get a number and don't even think of registering someone without their permission.

[ugimports]

WOAH! Stop.

First, DO NOT SIGN THEM UP! Honestly, I wouldn't even joke about that.

Yeah I was just joking...I was more reading the instructions so I could explain to them if need be how simple it is to sign up.

And I am not sure where you read the shipper would be liable. If you sign that firearm into your book without a CFLC, you committed a misdemeanor. Not the out of stater. There isn't a darn thing they can do to the out of stater.

As of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows.

From what I read here it's saying that the the FFL are prohibited from shipping to CA if they didn't get the approval number so I assumed that meant the shipper was liable in some way, but I agree that I was wondering how that was enforceable.

So relax, it is this simple.

Contact the out of stater and inform them they have to supply you with a CFLC number. See what their reaction is. It might be a simple, "Oh, we forget, I will get that right to you."

If they act like they have no clue, then proceed with caution. Tell them that unfortunately our stupid state is trying to dissuade that FFL from doing lawful commerce with the customers of our state with one more hurdle to jump through. Say the good news is that signing up for this is easy and I can help you do it over the phone right now in less than five minutes and from here on out this process will take less than 2 minutes to complete per gun transaction. I would highly recommend not stating they could get busted for not doing it as they might truly scare them away.

I like to tell them that they can submit the number to me anyway they want and they can just read it off to me over the phone right now.

If they get cold feet and decide they don't want to screw with it, notify them that you cannot accept the firearm without committing a misdemeanor and you will be returning it. Then let your customer know what happened and go from there.

So if you don't get a number, don't worry. Just don't log it in until you do. If you get near the seven days the feds want you to log things in by, then you might want to consider sending it back.

Do not log it in until you get a number and don't even think of registering someone without their permission.

Yeah I agree with the rest of this..

[ugimports]

Update: I just spoke with them and they are getting signed up now to get it taken care of *phew*. I just sent them instructions on what to do. One of these days I'm going to make a screencast of it so we can send it out to future out of state dealers to show how easy the process is.

[kemasa]

You only have 7 days to log it if the invoice has all of the required information. While the CA DOJ says to no log it, that does not make sense and could violate Federal law. If you send it back, you need to log that you received it and that you sent it. So, there is really no reason, other that what the CA DOJ says, to not log the firearm in, but as was stated, you should not transfer it or start to transfer it.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-records-required.html#time-to-record

Q: How much time does a dealer have to record acquisitions and dispositions of firearms in his or her “bound book?”

Generally, licensees have to enter the acquisition or purchase of a firearm by the close of the next business day after the acquisition or purchase and shall record sales or other dispositions within 7 days.

However, if commercial records containing the required information are available for inspection and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt to record the receipt in the “bound book.”

If a disposition is made before the acquisition has been entered in the “bound book,” the acquisition entry must be made at the same time as the disposition entry.

[27 CFR 478.125]

[Capt. Speirs]

This gets better and better, no wonder out-of-state FFLs don't want to ship to CA.

[kemasa]

Most of the problems are with the CA FFL, not with a FFL shipping to CA. When I talked to the CA DOJ about this, it seemed clear to me that they did not understand the Federal regulations nor really how a FFL operates. It seemed like they thought that you could return the firearm without entering it into your bound book as they said that if you entered it, then they would assume that you intended to transfer it.

[ugimports]

Most of the problems are with the CA FFL, not with a FFL shipping to CA. When I talked to the CA DOJ about this, it seemed clear to me that they did not understand the Federal regulations nor really how a FFL operates. It seemed like they thought that you could return the firearm without entering it into your bound book as they said that if you entered it, then they would assume that you intended to transfer it.

Although if you show it acquired and disposed of to the same out of state shop isn't that clear that you returned the firearm? Their argument of assuming you'd want to do a transfer just because you logged it in is lame because you have to log in any outbound shipments you do for customers that you may have no intention of transferring yourself.

[kemasa]

Yes, if you log it in and out, then it shows that you returned it, but they said to not log it in until the number is received.

Yes, it is lame that they try to push FFLs to not do what they should. It should be enough to put a tag on the firearm saying that it can not be sold and may have to be sent back.

There is some time to get the number and if you do not have an invoice that has all the required information, then you need to log it in your bound book. Such an invoice tends to come from places which you are not going to have a problem with (with some exceptions as one US manufacturer who shipped me firearms without the number because they did not have my CFD number instead of calling me, it was a drop shipment).