Question 11i about Domestic Violence on 4473

[ugimports]

I have a customer that was convicted of domestic violence 12 years ago, but is pretty adamant that they are clear to own firearms at this point. He is pretty sure he has been cleared per the "exceptions" rule of question 11 I on the 4473 and so has answered no. However, what documentation am I required to gather, if any, to support this? Or is there no documentation requirement since they are certifying to their compliance with the questions they've answered when they sign?

I wasn't sure if I needed to have anything on file before releasing the firearm. I'm assuming the state background check would find out if there were any issues before the releasing of the firearm, correct?

I know on the DROS side the question about misdo's has a 10 year limit on it so he's cleared on the DROS side, but I wasn't sure on Federal.

I haven't even started his DROS yet because I wasn't sure if I would be able to complete the transfer.

Thanks,

[CHS]

If he answered "no", and he signed the 4473 swearing that all answers and true and accurate, then you don't need to collect anything from him.

If he's not actually excepted, then the DOJ will just send a reject letter.

[ugimports]

That's what I was hoping to hear.

Thanks!

[ugimports]

If he answered "no", and he signed the 4473 swearing that all answers and true and accurate, then you don't need to collect anything from him.

If he's not actually excepted, then the DOJ will just send a reject letter.

I also sent my question to the ATF and here was their response:

If this person was convicted of domestic violence 12 years ago he is still a prohibited person. If the conviction was pardoned, set-aside or expunged the person should provide documentation from the court conviction occurred and a copy should be attached to the 4473.

I replied asking what type of paperwork is needed since I don't even know what it is supposed to look like. The customer provided me some paperwork from the court, but I'm not sure if it's what the ATF person is asking for.

[CHS]

I've always been told that if something is expunged/pardoned/etc, you are no longer required to answer "yes" to a question regarding that crime. So if he is excepted from the question, then he should be able to answer "no" and be truthful when signing the 4473 without having to back it up with paperwork.

Now, if the background check comes back negatory, then he would need to take that paperwork to the DoJ to get cleared again.

[ugimports]

I've always been told that if something is expunged/pardoned/etc, you are no longer required to answer "yes" to a question regarding that crime. So if he is excepted from the question, then he should be able to answer "no" and be truthful when signing the 4473 without having to back it up with paperwork.

Now, if the background check comes back negatory, then he would need to take that paperwork to the DoJ to get cleared again.

I was kind of under the same assumption.

[RHT447]

Best way that I know of to make sure is to use this form:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf

[ugimports]

Best way that I know of to make sure is to use this form:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf

Unfortunately, that doesn't help my customer. Since my customer can send that in and get a reply and be "ok" at the state level it doesn't necessarily mean he's ok at the federal level. The state only cares about certain misdo's for 10 years. He's at 12 years so they'd clear him. It appears as though the Feds have a lifetime ban on anyone that's done domestic violence unless a specific court document is present saying it's been set aside or whatever else was in my quote above. It's the classic scenario where something is ok with one agency, but not the other and we need to comply with the overlap of what is ok with both.

[EOD Guy]

Unfortunately, that doesn't help my customer. Since my customer can send that in and get a reply and be "ok" at the state level it doesn't necessarily mean he's ok at the federal level. The state only cares about certain misdo's for 10 years. He's at 12 years so they'd clear him. It appears as though the Feds have a lifetime ban on anyone that's done domestic violence unless a specific court document is present saying it's been set aside or whatever else was in my quote above. It's the classic scenario where something is ok with one agency, but not the other and we need to comply with the overlap of what is ok with both.

One of the things the DOJ does when they receive the DROS is to run an NICS inquiry on the purchaser.

[ugimports]

One of the things the DOJ does when they receive the DROS is to run an NICS inquiry on the purchaser.

I guess my point is the charge will probably show up, but the DOJ only cares about it for 10 years regardless of the outcome. The Feds care about it forever. So even though NICS would pick it up, they wouldn't care because at the state level once this particular misdo is past 10 years it's ok for CA (surprisingly), but at the federal level it's a lifetime ban. The lifetime ban seems to be enforced by ATF not CA DOJ.

[EOD Guy]

I guess my point is the charge will probably show up, but the DOJ only cares about it for 10 years regardless of the outcome. The Feds care about it forever. So even though NICS would pick it up, they wouldn't care because at the state level once this particular misdo is past 10 years it's ok for CA (surprisingly), but at the federal level it's a lifetime ban. The lifetime ban seems to be enforced by ATF not CA DOJ.

California, as a state point of contact, still must follow Federal law, in addition to their own additional requirements. If an NICS check comes back deny, California must also deny, even if all California requirements were met.

[ugimports]

California, as a state point of contact, still must follow Federal law, in addition to their own additional requirements. If an NICS check comes back deny, California must also deny, even if all California requirements were met.

I see what you're saying now. I think for this particular charge (according to the response I got from ATF) that the NICS would probably come back as a pass, but I would be required to have a copy of the court paperwork as backup perhaps. Otherwise, I would have thought she would have said "go ahead and run it. If he isn't cleared we'll find out during the NICS process." Ideally, I think that's easier then me telling him he has to get some paperwork from some court, with no official form name which just makes it confusing for both of us.

[CHS]

At the very least, if the DOJ gives him a pass, and he answers all questions truthfully and honestly on the 4473 while being under the belief that he is excepted, you have broken no laws as a dealer and any and all legal liability would fall upon the DOJ and the customer directly.

[kemasa]

He could fill out:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf

and see what the answer is. It will cost a little bit more, but then he does not risk being charged with trying to buy a firearm when he is not allowed (not that they actually charge people as Reno said that it was not worth it :-).

[yee]

Can you provide an update on this ? What ended up happening, was this person approved to have a gun or no ?