DROS and addition question.

[kozumasbullitt]

if you have an open dros (in your 10 day wait period) can you add a PPT long gun to the dros (no extra wait period)? i know you can add another long gun from inventory but i have no clue about a ppt deal.

[Matt@EntrepriseArms]

No, because it is a PPT - which is a different type of transfer. You must pay the fee and wait another 10 days.

One fun fact for you is when you do a PPT, the seller's ID is swiped as well as the buyers so the DOJ can ensure that the seller is not prohibited from owning a firearm.

[kozumasbullitt]

thanks, i kind of thought that would be the answer.

[kemasa]

i know you can add another long gun from inventory but i have no clue about a ppt deal.

Unless you warp the term "single sale", you can not add long guns once the DROS was submitted. Some will tell you otherwise, but do so at your own risk.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Unless you warp the term "single sale", you can not add long guns once the DROS was submitted. Some will tell you otherwise, but do so at your own risk.

Can you provide a definition for the term "single sale"? How long does a "single sale" last? Any citations from the penal code or CCR would suffice for me.

Absent any official definition of "single sale", I follow clear federal guidelines that state a 4473 is closed when the seller (that is the FFL dealer) signs the 4473. That is when my "single sale" is over and therefore I will add long guns at customer will. I simply cross out the number on the DROS and make sure the correct number is on the DROS.

For a PPT, lets just keep it simple and say no. I could probably argue that it is possible, but I am tired and don't feel like it. Just say no on the basis that since the PPT fee is capped at $10 if you added an inventory long gun for more than $10, you might be violating the penal code cap on PPT fees.

[ke6guj]

how did I guess this thread was gonna be the Ken and Wes show

[kemasa]

Actually, Wes confirms my comment regarding warping what a "single sale" is. Wes refuses to supply a definition, but claims that I should do what he refuses and/or can not do, and decides to make it what he wants to be. He also ignores what is written in the CA Penal Code and ignores the view of the CA DOJ. Wes also said that he would get an known firearm attorney's opinion on this, but I have yet to see anything from him in that respect.

Then, he goes on to talk about the 4473, which does not apply at all since the "single sale" requirement is CA law and the 4473 involves Federal law, apples and oranges. The 4473 does not mention a single sale and what the Feds consider to be a firearm transaction is clearly different that what CA does.

My definition of a single sale is that once the DROS is submitted, the sale has been reported and that ends that particular sale. After all, it is not DROPS (Dealer Record Of Partial Sale).

[tenpercentfirearms]

Actually, Wes confirms my comment regarding warping what a "single sale" is. Wes refuses to supply a definition, but claims that I should do what he refuses and/or can not do, and decides to make it what he wants to be. He also ignores what is written in the CA Penal Code and ignores the view of the CA DOJ. Wes also said that he would get an known firearm attorney's opinion on this, but I have yet to see anything from him in that respect.

False. I gave my definition. You just ignore it. I am still working on the attorney. He hasn't said yes and he hasn't said no. I think he forgot about me. It is true the DOJ is not excited about us adding long guns onto an existing DROS at the expense of a lost $25 revenue. That is why they claim it is ok to decrease the gun number if a customer changes their mind, but not for an increase. This is inconsistent logic. It would be interesting to hear some examples of dealers actually being written up for adding long guns to a DROS. I have never heard of it. Just fear mongering.

Then, he goes on to talk about the 4473, which does not apply at all since the "single sale" requirement is CA law and the 4473 involves Federal law, apples and oranges. The 4473 does not mention a single sale and what the Feds consider to be a firearm transaction is clearly different that what CA does.

Absent a CA definition of single sale, I use the 4473. Not sure why you can't fathom the applicability of using federal guidelines when state guidelines are not clear. This lack of reasoning is on you.

My definition of a single sale is that once the DROS is submitted, the sale has been reported and that ends that particular sale. After all, it is not DROPS (Dealer Record Of Partial Sale).

I am sure the DOJ will cite this thread and your definition when they take me to court. I will be sure to cite penal code that does not specify how long a single sale lasts and also the Form 4473 that states a 4473 is closed when the seller signs the form. We will see who prevails. Kemasa and the DOJ or Wes Morris, the Penal Code, and the 4473.

Since you must have the last word, I am done with this thread and I give you permission to go ahead and get your last word in. Feel free to misrepresent me and claim things that are not true, I won't come back to defend my already clear case. Enjoy Kemasa.

[rbetts]

DOH!! My Man Wes!!

[Cokebottle]

Can you provide a definition for the term "single sale"? How long does a "single sale" last? Any citations from the penal code or CCR would suffice for me.

Absent any official definition of "single sale", I follow clear federal guidelines that state a 4473 is closed when the seller (that is the FFL dealer) signs the 4473. That is when my "single sale" is over and therefore I will add long guns at customer will. I simply cross out the number on the DROS and make sure the correct number is on the DROS.

How does the 10-day waiting period work with this?
Does the 10-day wait restart, so if the buyer wants to add an LG to the DROS on day-8, he can't pick up anything until day-18?

[tenpercentfirearms]

How does the 10-day waiting period work with this?
Does the 10-day wait restart, so if the buyer wants to add an LG to the DROS on day-8, he can't pick up anything until day-18?

If you do not want to take the risk of adding more long guns to a DROS, then you will need to start a new DROS and start the ten 24 hour periods over again. If you are just adding a long gun to the existing DROS, then no additional wait is required beyond the original DROSes ten 24 hour periods.

[kemasa]

As I said, a warped reading. Wes admits that he uses the Feds to back his position, but this does not hold water because what the Feds consider to be a firearm transaction is very different than what CA does and does not talk at all about a "sale", much less a "single sale". The Feds don't require a separate 4473 for every handgun transaction, whereas CA requires a DROS for every handgun.

It is quite a bit different to allow for the number of firearms to be reduced rather than increased. Common sense.

It can be difficult to prove that additional firearms were added vs. just making a mistake and incorrectly stating the number of firearms, which makes it hard to charge someone. Now, if they make public statements about what they are doing, then it is more likely that a case can be made that they are violating the law.

Those, like Wes, who are willing to add additional firearms have stated that they do not increase the waiting period, which is an issue with the Penal code, but that does not matter to them since Wes considers it a single sale, so the sale actually happened when the DROS was submitted and the buyer did not realize that they purchased more firearms at that time, I guess.

On a personal basis, I think that the CA law should be changed to allow for adding firearms just like the Federal law allows and that long guns should be allowed on a single DROS fee when a person purchases a handgun. It makes sense, but unfortunately the law does not make sense. For example, in the past, FFLs were not exempt from the waiting period even though they could purchase firearms and not wait using their license.

[Cokebottle]

As I said, a warped reading. Wes admits that he uses the Feds to back his position, but this does not hold water because what the Feds consider to be a firearm transaction is very different than what CA does and does not talk at all about a "sale", much less a "single sale".

Either way though, would this not be a legal risk only for the FFL? What exposure would the purchaser have?

[kemasa]

I would suspect that the risk is only to the FFL, although the transfer would not be a legal transfer. I doubt that the DOJ would do anything to the purchaser, but you would need to ask them to get an idea.

My personal opinion is that it is best to not deal with people or businesses which do illegal and/or questionable things as it can come back to bite you.

[kemasa]

I came across some references to the concept of a single sale, lone or transfer. In reference to that, it mentions the same date. Of course, some might want to read this differently, but I thought that I would pass it on.

CALIFORNIA CODES PENAL CODE SECTION 12070-12086

12076.
(i) (1) Only one fee shall be charged pursuant to this section for
a single transaction on the same date for the sale of any number of
firearms that are not pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable
of being concealed upon the person or for the taking of possession of
those firearms.
(2) In a single transaction on the same date for the delivery of
any number of firearms that are pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person, the department shall
charge a reduced fee pursuant to this section for the second and
subsequent firearms that are part of that transaction.
(j) Only one fee shall be charged pursuant to this section for a
single transaction on the same date for taking title or possession of
any number of firearms pursuant to paragraph (18) of subdivision (b)
of Section 12071 or subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078.

12077.
(4) One firearm transaction shall be reported on each record of
sale document. For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction"
means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that
are not handguns.