Adding Shotgun to DROS

[tenpercentfirearms]

If we need to look elsewhere for a definition of a "sale", one body of CA law sees a "sale" as concluding only when the buyer has taken possession of the tangible goods being sold. If the tax rate has changed from the time an item is paid for and the time it is picked up, the new tax rate applies. Thus, the "sale" does not conclude until possession has changed.

Just a thought.

Good point. A customer who paid for the gun before the tax increase and picked it up after the tax increase would be pretty pissed if you asked for more money, but that is what the BOE wants you to do. When that happened last year. we paid the extra tax for anyone who was paid in full before the increase. Those guys that just put some money down paid the new tax.

I think we all realize that the sale is not closed until the customer picks up. Again, absent some DOJ definition, the BOE and the feds seem to support this line of thinking as well.

[kemasa]

Clearly, you don't understand the difference between a sale and a transaction. In CA, you can have one sale of handguns, but two transactions to report.

Nice attack on grammer issues, but clearly that is just an excuse for you to not respond, most likely because you can't.

Also, I have no responsibility of showing a definition, so I can not "shirk my responsibility". How interesting that you think that is my job and you don't think that you have to do anything. As you say, clearly you (Wes) are out of an argument.

As it is said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I would also suggest that you (Wes) not claim to be the one who judges me. You are not the judge here, although I know you want to be.

So, if a remote customer buys a firearm from you, the sale is not over until the firearm is picked up at the other FFL? Also, if the sale is not over, then no return is required if the customer changes their mind, so you would need to refund the total amount without any restocking fees.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Clearly, you don't understand the difference between a sale and a transaction. In CA, you can have one sale of handguns, but two transactions to report.

Nice attack on grammer issues, but clearly that is just an excuse for you to not respond, most likely because you can't.

Also, I have no responsibility of showing a definition, so I can not "shirk my responsibility". How interesting that you think that is my job and you don't think that you have to do anything. As you say, clearly you (Wes) are out of an argument.

As it is said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I would also suggest that you (Wes) not claim to be the one who judges me. You are not the judge here, although I know you want to be.

So, if a remote customer buys a firearm from you, the sale is not over until the firearm is picked up at the other FFL? Also, if the sale is not over, then no return is required if the customer changes their mind, so you would need to refund the total amount without any restocking fees.

All irrelevant. Were you going to post up the section that defines the length of a single sale or are you going to continue to bring up a bunch of side issues?

Sorry kemasa, I will judge you all day long based off of your arguments. I am judging you to be seriously lacking in the realm of penal code and legal comprehension. I judge you to be very effective at dodging the issue and going off on side tangents.

If you claim you we are breaking the law, it is your responsibility to show us where. You continue to state we are violating the language of the "single sale", yet you cannot show us a definition of a single sale. You have no case so you go off on tangents. We can start reading you like a book!

If a remote customer buys a firearm for me, it is just like a transaction in the shop. When the sales receipt is printed and the firearm leaves the building, the sale is finished. However, this is clearly a horrible point to bring up as there is no ten day wait for me to ship, I can ship the firearms whenever I want, in any number of packages I want, and the electronic register is not used. And you want us to take you seriously?

A clear return policy would specify whether you can return the merchandise or not. A company can make up any sales return policy they want and you as a consumer do not have to buy from that seller if you don't agree.

Again, pointless babble from kemasa and he is clearly not interested in showing us a definition of the length of time of a single sale.

I seriously wish you were a DOJ prosecutor. This would be a slaughter. Thankfully I think the DOJ has a better grasp than this.

[Mike's Custom]

If we need to look elsewhere for a definition of a "sale", one body of CA law sees a "sale" as concluding only when the buyer has taken possession of the tangible goods being sold. If the tax rate has changed from the time an item is paid for and the time it is picked up, the new tax rate applies. Thus, the "sale" does not conclude until possession has changed.

Just a thought.

This is what I was told by the DOJ of what a sale is. If the firearm is never picked up it is never sold.

[kemasa]

Wes, you love to claim what I should do, but you refuse to do it yourself. You love to dodge questions you can't answer and try to push things on others. You claim that I have some responsibility, so please show me where you come up with that. I don't have any responsibility to explain simple English to you. I am sorry you can not understand what a single sale is, but clearly you understand that your view is different than the DOJ, which presents a bit of an issue for you.

Please present your basis for claiming what your definition of a single sale is. Please don't refer to the BATF as they don't talk about sales, single or otherwise, so that attempt is bogus.

Please explain how I am attempting to get you shutdown if you are following the law.

Attacks don't back up your point of view.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Wes, you love to claim what I should do, but you refuse to do it yourself. You love to dodge questions you can't answer and try to push things on others. You claim that I have some responsibility, so please show me where you come up with that. I don't have any responsibility to explain simple English to you. I am sorry you can not understand what a single sale is, but clearly you understand that your view is different than the DOJ, which presents a bit of an issue for you.

Please present your basis for claiming what your definition of a single sale is. Please don't refer to the BATF as they don't talk about sales, single or otherwise, so that attempt is bogus.

Please explain how I am attempting to get you shutdown if you are following the law.

Attacks don't back up your point of view.

I guess you only read what you want. Read the post directly above your last. Mike said the DOJ told him that was what a sale was. Are you calling Mike a liar?

You are claiming I am breaking the law. Common sense would indicate that if you make a claim I am breaking the law, you have a responsibility to show where I am breaking the law. You continue to fail to show where the length of a single sale is defined by the California Government.

I have accepted your inability to back up your claims as an acknowledgment that you in fact don't have any proof. If you haven't seen my reasoning in any of my posts above, I can't help it if you're blind, illiterate, or just plain dense. I have clearly outlined my position over and over with you. The simple things you need to prove me wrong are clear, but you have consistently failed to provide the definitions.

Fact: you have not shown the State definition of a single sale.

Fact: I have given my definition of a single sale, which has not been shown to contradict any State definition.

Fact: You lose this debate. Brush up on your skills and try again on the next issue.

Give up on your dying ship and hop in the life boat. You don't have to go down with the ship. It is OK to admit that your boat couldn't stand up to mine and I sunk you. Live to fight another day man!

[kemasa]

Based on what you said, you have broken the law. You admitted to including a long gun on a handgun DROS. You have admitted to adding a firearm after the DROS was submitted and therefore you might not have waited the 10 day waiting period. Mike's comments does not allow for adding firearms to the DROS after it was submitted, does it? It talks about a sale, not a single sale. That extra word is important as it is there for a reason.

All of that does not matter though, because you claim that I am trying to get you shutdown. If you are not breaking the law, as you say, then how and why could I possibly get you shutdown? Clearly, your response shows that you know what you are doing is wrong and that your statements/claims are false, yet you want others to do what you are promoting, most likely so that they can be the test victims.

Fact: you have not shown the State definition of a single sale. Your definition clearly ignores the word "single".

Fact: You are not the judge of who wins or loses the debate. In this case, the CA DOJ is the one to decide. You can help decrease the time by providing all the required information to them so that they can have the evidence to decide.

I would strongly suggest that you give up on your sinking ship and start following the law and stop promoting others to violate the law before you earn yourself free room and board.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Fact: you have not shown the State definition of a single sale. Your definition clearly ignores the word "single".

I have clearly stated there is no State definition of a single sale. Absent of a State definition, it is up to me to decide. You claim I can't do that or that my definition is flawed. Time and time again, you won't provide evidence to back up your claim.

Really, you need to only answer that point and that point only. You fail this debate because you won't. It really is that simple.

And just because Mike didn't put "single" in front of his "sale", if your reading comprehension was up to par, you would have known that is exactly what he is talking about. He is saying your single sale is not over until pick up.

While you are at it, show us where each and every gun has to go through a ten day background check. I would be interested to see it. Or are you just making things up again?

[kemasa]

As I said, not every word is defined in the penal code, but that does not mean you can claim it to mean anything that you want.

You clearly want to ignore the word "single". If they had mean just a sale, then it would have said that. You want to ignore that since it would harm your position. As such, I have answered that point.

I am glad that you can speak for Mike and know exactly what he is talking about when he does not use specific words. Then again, you clearly what to be the ultimate judge of everything, as shown in your previous posts.

I did not say a "ten day background check". The background check is much faster than that, often within minutes, but you still can not deliver the firearm until 10 days after the DROS is submitted.

So, you are claiming that there is no 10 day waiting period? You are supposed to be a fully licensed FFL, so I would think that you would know how you run your business, but instead you want me to spoon feed you everything, but then again you refuse to read the penal code in any way other than your warped manner. You can see PC 12071 & 12072. It won't do any good since you think that you can add a long gun to a handgun DROS and you think that you can add long guns after the DROS is submitted.

It is amazing at what you come up with.

[tenpercentfirearms]

As I said, not every word is defined in the penal code, but that does not mean you can claim it to mean anything that you want.

If only I was making that simpleton of an argument. We have clearly shown where not only do the feds consider a 4473 open until the seller signs the document upon delivery, but also where the BOE claims a sale is not over until delivery and point of sale software also allows for this. I am not just making it mean whatever I want. A single sale can be multiple long guns. It does not state how long that single sale lasts. Absent a state definition, we are not held to your standard of what a single sale is. It really is that simple.

You clearly want to ignore the word "single". If they had mean just a sale, then it would have said that. You want to ignore that since it would harm your position. As such, I have answered that point.

LOL. Yeah I ignored it all right, that is why I have addressed that the state did not state how long a "single sale" lasts over and over again. For some reason you keep missing it.

I am glad that you can speak for Mike and know exactly what he is talking about when he does not use specific words. Then again, you clearly what to be the ultimate judge of everything, as shown in your previous posts.

More babble on your part. Just keep hoping if you go off on enough tangents, we will forget you have no case and suddenly take you seriously.

I did not say a "ten day background check". The background check is much faster than that, often within minutes, but you still can not deliver the firearm until 10 days after the DROS is submitted.

Blah, blah, blah.

So, you are claiming that there is no 10 day waiting period? You are supposed to be a fully licensed FFL, so I would think that you would know how you run your business, but instead you want me to spoon feed you everything, but then again you refuse to read the penal code in any way other than your warped manner. You can see PC 12071 & 12072. It won't do any good since you think that you can add a long gun to a handgun DROS and you think that you can add long guns after the DROS is submitted.

It is amazing at what you come up with.

More tangents on your part. You stated, "You have admitted to adding a firearm after the DROS was submitted and therefore you might not have waited the 10 day waiting period." Does the penal code specify that every gun must go through a 10 day waiting period? Clearly we as dealers must wait ten 24 hour periods after DROS start to deliver firearms. Your tangent of even pretending that I somehow don't know that makes it pretty evident you have nothing going for you here.

If you are claiming that somehow adding long guns to a DROS violates the "not have waited the 10 day waiting period", then back it up. Again, this isn't you spoon feeding me. This is you making a claim and having to back it up.

Every single time I have claimed I have an ability to do something, I have backed it up with clear references to penal code or CCR. You just like to claim things are illegal and you give no support.

You have consistently done so ever since you started on this topic threads ago. And every time people call you on it.

So, where does it say if I add long guns to a DROS I am not waiting the ten day waiting period? You claimed it, back it up.

Thank you for finally admitting the penal code makes no mention of how long a single sale lasts. You pretty much have no case now. I will stop asking you for the definition.

[kemasa]

Yeah, Wes, you are just so good that you make all these claims against me, but you refuse to back what you are saying. You love to ignore the word "single" and you refuse to answer how I am trying to shut you down if you are not doing anything wrong.

The Feds and the BOE do not talk about a "single sale", yet you want to claim that when it is mentioned about a "sale", it is the same as a "single sale". You refuse to explain why the word "single" is there and what it means. It has been pointed out time and time again that what the Feds consider a firearm transaction is quite different than what CA considers a firearm transaction, yet you continue to claim that what the Feds consider a firearm transaction has something to do what what CA considers is a single sale.

If you sell an additional longgun on the day a person is picking up another longgun, then there has been no 10 day waiting period, but then again you claim that there is no 10 day waiting period on every firearm.

While you have referenced the penal code, at times, you try to claim it means what you want it to, rather than what it actually says.

While the penal code does not define the word single, the dictionary does, and since it does not define it, you need to use the dictionary and/or ask what is meant by it, rather than just claim it is what you want it to be, without it making any sense.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Yeah, Wes, you are just so good that you make all these claims against me, but you refuse to back what you are saying. You love to ignore the word "single" and you refuse to answer how I am trying to shut you down if you are not doing anything wrong.

The Feds and the BOE do not talk about a "single sale", yet you want to claim that when it is mentioned about a "sale", it is the same as a "single sale". You refuse to explain why the word "single" is there and what it means. It has been pointed out time and time again that what the Feds consider a firearm transaction is quite different than what CA considers a firearm transaction, yet you continue to claim that what the Feds consider a firearm transaction has something to do what what CA considers is a single sale.

If you sell an additional longgun on the day a person is picking up another longgun, then there has been no 10 day waiting period, but then again you claim that there is no 10 day waiting period on every firearm.

While you have referenced the penal code, at times, you try to claim it means what you want it to, rather than what it actually says.

While the penal code does not define the word single, the dictionary does, and since it does not define it, you need to use the dictionary and/or ask what is meant by it, rather than just claim it is what you want it to be, without it making any sense.

LOL. I guess we are done here. Not only have I explained several times that single means a sale up until you sign the guns out and have the on a single sales receipt, but you're claiming you need to use the dictionary to define penal code pretty much shows what level you are at. Then throw in there your false claim that I stated there is no ten day waiting period, and you have your trifecta of absurdity.

Sorry kemasa, you have officially lost. You aren't even being rational anymore. Your blind lust to be right has clouded any shred of logical position you might have once had.

I guess I hit a nerve when I said you were more interested in getting dealers busted than debating this topic since that is the only thing you can go back on. Actively seeking to get dealers to give up their 4473 numbers so you can go make a phone call to your DOJ masters and let them know about deviations from their master plan pretty much qualifies you.

Sure I don't know if you made a phone call or not, but hey, why not make it up. You sure seem to like making things up. Like my claiming there is no ten day wait or that the dictionary definition must be used for defining penal code. LOL!

Crap, I get it now. This whole thing was a joke. You were pulling my chain the whole time. I really thought you were serious. Ok, you guys got me. The rest of you knew he wasn't serious didn't you? Bastards. That was a cruel trick.

[kemasa]

You have explained nothing regarding a single sale. You have tried to make claims which are not related to "single sale", but those claims are bogus.

Read what YOU wrote regarding the waiting period of firearms ("Does the penal code specify that every gun must go through a 10 day waiting period?"). You claimed that handguns were not firearm transactions, then claimed that you never said that and when specifically quoted, you ignored it. While you might want to make claims about me, the reality is that you are not rational, you have no understanding of who the real judge is, but it is not you. You are resorting to personal attacks with the claims not "blind lust" and other such garbage, but that shows that you really don't have a valid argument.

You did not "hit a nerve" with your bogus claim that I am trying to get you shutdown. It showed that you are completely out of gas and you have to resort to making bogus claims. You again refuse to answer how I am trying to get you shutdown if you are not violating the law. If you think that I can get you shutdown by your being foolish enough to post of your illegal activities on a public forum, then you really need to get some help. You are so childish to keep claiming that I have "DOJ masters". Get off the playground and grow up. Take some personal responsibility to your own actions, both with what you are doing and with posting in a public forum about it.

At least you admit you are willing to make things up, which shows that you are a liar and nothing that you say can be trusted. I am not making anything up, unlike you. Clearly you have some motive for wanting others to think that I am calling the DOJ on you, instead of your taking responsibility for what you are posting in a public forum, which is known to be read by the DOJ. But you still refuse to explain how if anyone were to call the DOJ that it would present a problem for you since you claim that you are not breaking the law.

Yes, it is a joke. The joke is on you for posting your strange reading of the penal code and admitting to what you are doing in a public forum. It is funny that you don't even remember what you have said when you claim you did not say what you said.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

So it sounds like what Kemasa is saying is that whenever the Penal Code is unclear on the definition of a word, we need to give more weight to the definition Kemasa makes up than to other sources. What's so hard to understand about that Wes?

[kemasa]

Don't make things up like Wes does. The simple fact is that when the word is not defined in the penal, you are not able to make up the definition yourself. You can look to the dictionary and other sources. Trying to claim that the BATF 4473 firearm transaction has something to say about a "single sale" is making things up. Trying to claim that the BOE definition of a sale has something to say about a "single sale" is making things up.

I am not making up the definition to the word "single", unlike Wes, who trying to claim that it can be multiple sales at different times.