BATF no longer accepting Safe Afft.

[vinniesguns]

Had my DOJ inspection today, she told me they (DOJ) accept the safe aaft. but that BATF no longer does. Meaninf of course that a receipt of a CA. approved safety lock or the approved safety lock that comes with a new gun, with the recorded number, are required to be in compliance, with both the State and Feds. Anyone had a Fed. inspection that can confirm this?

[PolishMike]

That has been the case with handguns, are you saying this now applies to long guns as well?

[bohoki]

the atf has never accepted the safe affidavit on pistols

aft requirement that each pistol sold has a lock with it
but they have no requirement about a receipt within the last 30 days

so safe for california and childsafe lock for the feds

[PonchoTA]

It's all BS anyway. I don't even HAVE kids in my home, yet I still have to buy a lock or prove I have a safe, to keep these non-existent chiiiiiillllllldddrrrrruunnnnn safe.

BS. BS. BS.

.

[halifax]

Until the Youth Handgun Safety Act passed the feds didn't require safes or locks on any gun. Now it's just hand guns and they don't recognize the CA Safe Affidavit as satisfying that requirement. So the CA Safe Affidavit was never accepted by the feds.

[freakshow10mm]

Just had the compliance interview when I got my 07 last summer. ATF said federal law is every handgun must have a lock, state law is every firearm. Stupid state form I have to have them/me sign and keep on file for every gun sold (4473 customers).

I just went down to the police station and told the I got my FFL. They gave me a 50lb box of gun locks from the Project Childsafe thingie. "here, let us know if you need more". OK.

I let my customers know I have them and offer them one, they take it and give it back to me. I done my part. Still have the 50lb box of locks. I think I had 2-3 people keep it. The rest give it back.

[kemasa]

The rules for the BATF for gun locks has not been published yet, as required, so there is some question as to whether it can really be enforced. The law, as written, states that the FFL has to provide the lock or a safe, not the buyer. The BATF attorney said that it does not matter if the buyer has a safe, that it only counts if the FFL provides it at the time of delivery. An agent said that they are not enforcing it unless they personally see it.

[halifax]

Official response from ATF when I asked them about the CA Safe Affidavit:

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Washington, DC 20226
DEC 8, 2008
903010:LHB
5300

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx:

This is in response to your letter to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your letter, you asked if the California State Form, Affidavit Stating Ownership of an Acceptable Gun Safe or Lock Box. is an acceptable form for customers in lieu of purchasing an 800+-pound full safe.

As you may know, a major mission of ATF is enforcement of the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), its subsequent amendments, and other Federal firearms laws. A significant part of the GCA concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture, importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms.

Section 921 (a)(34)(C) of Title 18 of the United States Code (U.S.C.) defines a secure gun storage or safety device as a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm, and that designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, combination, or other similar means. 18 U.S.C. 922(z), regarding secure gun storage or safety device, states in part that it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun at the time of the firearm sales transaction.

The form used by the State of California Department of Justice with the standards set forth by section 977.50 of the California Code of Regulations may comply with California laws but does not comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ATF. This form is not an ATF form and is not an acceptable form in lieu of presenting a secure gun storage or safety device at the time of each firearm sales transaction.

We regret that our response was not more positive. If you should have any further questions, we invite you to review our Web site at www.atf.gov. You may also contact our office at (202) 648-7090.

Sincerely yours,


Raymond G. Rowley
Chief, Firearms Programs Division

So, although the ATF recognizes that the CA Safe Affidavit is a legal document, they won't accept it because it is not one of "their" legal documents. If you don't want another lock to add to your collection just bring in your safe and you are good to go.

[kemasa]

Ask them if they have published the rules, as required.

There is no federal form or requirement for documenting how you follow this law.

If you bring in the safe, you still will not be following the law. "unless the transferee is provided" is the problem. According to the BATF attorney, the law is that the FFL has to "provide" the lock or safe and if the buyer brings it in, the FFL is not providing it. No kidding, that is what I was told.

[halifax]

Ask them if they have published the rules, as required.

There is no federal form or requirement for documenting how you follow this law.

If you bring in the safe, you still will not be following the law. "unless the transferee is provided" is the problem. According to the BATF attorney, the law is that the FFL has to "provide" the lock or safe and if the buyer brings it in, the FFL is not providing it. No kidding, that is what I was told.

If the customer sells it to me for a penny and I give the safe back to him, I would be the one providing the locking device.

[kemasa]

Yep, but then again, there is currently no publication, as required, stating how you are supposed to document the transaction. The letter the BATF sent out stated that it would be published, but it was never done.

How do you document that the item was transferred to you and then you provided it to the buyer? :-)

[halifax]

Yep, but then again, there is currently no publication, as required, stating how you are supposed to document the transaction. The letter the BATF sent out stated that it would be published, but it was never done.

How do you document that the item was transferred to you and then you provided it to the buyer? :-)

I just don't see it as that complicated. I'd just note it on the 4473 30c. I don't think I would be breaking any laws if my customer left with a safe.

[kemasa]

Nope, not laws would be broken if everyone left with a safe, but there is also no requirements that you even document it.

I suspect that the requirement publication has not been done since it is not workable. Clearly, the intent was that if the person had a safe, then it was acceptable. The problem is that in one sentence it says that the FFL has to provide safe storage and later on it only mentions about it being provided, so the attorney claims that means that ONLY the FFL can be the one to provide it.

[ontargetrange]

Having gone through two ATF and two DOJ audits now I can say what the current OC agents are saying --

Forget the safe affidavit UNLESS the safe was purchased within the last 30 days
A receipt for a firearm lock (CA approved as well) original copy of it, be attached to the DROS paperwork or 4473

That is what the agents are looking for -- you ALSO need to write out the lock model on the front of the DROS near the bottom in the comment line to further "prove" you did see or sell a lock at the time of delivery

This is a crock, but one we are stuck with going forward --

I also called the regional rep for ATF and asked when I was going to see the letter from them about this -- to set the record straight -- unknown to them

[nickvig]

Why does the original lock provided with a firearm not meet this requirement? Has anyone asked the DOJ and/or BATF this? If the gun was supplied with a factory lock (even for a PPT) why does the purchaser have buy another lock? Especially since this is not the case with the purchase of new firearms directly from a dealer.