dros pistol and long gun

[ady]

Can my ffl dros a new pistol and a long gun at the same time and only charge me for the $25 or would it be $50 due to seperate form on pistol
TIA.

[Quiet]

Handgun needs a seperate DROS.
However, you can do multiple long guns on a single DROS.

[tenpercentfirearms]

This has been debated before.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=31037

[kemasa]

It has been debated before, but if you look at the Penal Code, you will see that you can not transfer a longgun with a handgun DROS. You can also confirm this by calling the CA DOJ.

[striker3]

It has been debated before, but if you look at the Penal Code, you will see that you can not transfer a longgun with a handgun DROS. You can also confirm this by calling the CA DOJ.

What penal code is that? From reading through that thread, it doesn't seem as if anyone, DOJ included, can cite the exact code...

[kemasa]

Penal Code 12076.

It is broken up into two parts, handguns and non-handguns.

Here are some of the sections:

(h) Where the electronic or telephonic transfer of applicant
information is used, the department shall establish a system to be
used for the submission of the fees described in subdivision (e) to
the department.
(i) (1) Only one fee shall be charged pursuant to this section for
a single transaction on the same date for the sale of any number of
firearms that are not pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable
of being concealed upon the person or for the taking of possession of
those firearms.
(2) In a single transaction on the same date for the delivery of
any number of firearms that are pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person, the department shall
charge a reduced fee pursuant to this section for the second and
subsequent firearms that are part of that transaction.

(4) One firearm transaction shall be reported on each record of
sale document. For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction"
means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that
are not handguns.

It is stupid, but it is the law. You should be able to include long guns with a handgun DROS, but that is not the way the law is written.

The reason that you can not add long guns is because it would not be consider part of a single sale, it is really a separate sale.

[ady]

Thanks! that was was i was looking for but could not find it.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Thanks! that was was i was looking for but could not find it.

Kemesa, you are not being very intellectually honest here. You actually just cut and paste definitions from different sections of penal code. There is no PC 12076(h)(4) as you are claiming here.

Please use The DOJ Website for a clear reference to what we are talking about and read it yourself in its unaltered entirety.

12076(h) and (i) only state what the state may charge for these transactions. They are not regulations on what you may or may not do as an FFL submitting DROS.

However PC 12077 does state what is required on the electronic register. It does state what is required for a handgun DROS in 12077(b)(1) through (3). That is pretty simple.

12077(c)(1) through (3) states what is required for a long gun.

12077(d) states what occurs in general. That is where he gets the

(d) Where the register is used, the following shall apply:
(4) One firearm transaction shall be reported on each record of sale document. For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns.

Now the interesting thing is you can only report one firearm transaction per document. That is fine. I will only report one transaction, which can be any number of long guns. However, that is kind of confusing as technically a handgun sale is not a transaction as it is specifically exempted in 12077(d)(4). So if a handgun sale is not a transaction by definition as it is excluded, then what in the hell is it?

So if I can submit a handgun sale, which is not a transaction as it is specifically exempted, using the guidelines of 12077(b)(1) through (3) and at the same time satisfy all of the requirements of 12077(c)(1) through (3), then am I violating this law by adding long guns to it?

It is also interesting to note that the DOJ does not specify how long a single sale, loan, or transfer lasts. Kemesa has also claimed that you cannot add long guns to a long gun DROS because of this single sale language and because the DROS software asks for a number and you can't change it in the software. It is interesting to note that no where in 12077(c)(1) through (3) is "number of long guns" a required entry. Additionally, is a Dealer Record of Sale complete when it is run? Or is it complete only when "(3) The firearms dealer shall record on the register or record of electronic transfer the date that the firearm is delivered."? After all can't the DOJ deny a person? Until the ten days pass, is the transaction over? Even when the ten days pass is the transaction over because if their 30 days expire, they still may not take the firearm home with them?

Remember 12076 doesn't really apply as that just specifies what the DOJ may charge and how they are submitted. So I am not really sure why kemesa even quotes that section and why he then tags on sections from 12077 without properly citing them.

So again, there is still no clear evidence that you are prohibited from adding long guns onto a handgun DROS. The feds clearly allow it and nothing in the penal code prohibits it. Additionally, until you sign the 4473, you can add as many long guns as you want as you can claim you left the customer transaction open and they didn't finish paying and you were following federal guidelines that "Additional firearms purchases by the same buyer may not be added to the form after the sller has signed and dated it. A buyer who wishes to purchase additonal firearms after the seller has signed and dated the form must complete a new ATF Form 4473. The seller must conduct a new NICS check."

Moral of the story, always check the code yourself. Obviously kemesa is cutting and pasting code from different sections to fit his world view. I am not sure why, but it doesn't lead to a very credible argument when disclosed.

If calling the DOJ to confirm, be sure to have them give you the specific penal code sections that prohibit it. If they can't answer, give them your number and tell them to call you back when they find it. Better yet, ask for it in writing. Don't hold your breath waiting for a response and the more I think about it, don't be surprised if it isn't the same exact argument kemesa makes.

Kemesa, which gun shop do you run?

Never mind, I found it. http://www.net-ffl.com/ffl.html

Is Kemesa your given name? That is kind of interesting that you don't have your business name and address anywhere. I did manage to find an e-mail link.

Sorry for the questions, I am just trying to establish exactly who you are. Everyone knows who I am and knows where my shop is located and even the name of it. Just trying to establish your credibility beyond your flawed arguments. Maybe I should just stick to your flawed arguments.

One final edit: Please understand that not all FFLs will do this, in fact probably few will actually run a handgun DROS and add long guns. If they do not wish to do it, do not force the issue as this is a bit of a gray area. I think I make a solid argument that it is not prohibited; however, should an FFL be expected to take a large financial risk to prove this is correct? As an FFL it makes more economic sense to just run the customer for another $25 and not worry about it. So just because I think you can do it and just because I have heard of other FFLs doing it (and the BATFE told me they have seen other FFLs do it during their audits), doesn't mean your FFL is going to want to do it. In the grand scheme of things if $25 is going to make or break the deal, you probably don't need the guns anyway.

[kemasa]

10%, it is offensive for you to falsely claim that I am not being honest. If I grabbed from a different section, it was by mistake. Quite clearly you are not accurate since you can not even get my name correct, which is a simple thing.

You are not being honest nor accurate when you say "Kemesa has also claimed that you cannot add long guns to a long gun DROS because of this single sale language and because the DROS software asks for a number and you can't change it in the software." This is completely FALSE since I stated that the reason that you can not add longguns is because it would be a different sale. I know that you claim that until it is all said and done it is the same sale, but that is that what a reasonable person would say that a single sale is.

Why do you bring up the Feds in terms of the DROS? Don't you understand that the Feds have NOTHING to do with the CA DROS and CA law? Clearly, this is to try to support your view, but is it bogus. You also bring up adding firearms to the 4473, but again this is bogus because it has nothing to do with CA law and the requirements for CA. At the end you again refer to the BATF, but why? This is NOT a BATF issue at all. The BATF does not know CA law and the CA DOJ does not know the Federal law. You need to contact the correct group.

The penal code states what a DROS submission is and it is separated into handguns and non-handguns. You want to merge the two, but it can not be done. As I said, common sense would state that you should be able to include longguns with a handgun purchase since a background check is being done and they don't keep track of the serial numbers, but the problem is that you expect that the law be based on common sense.

It is a mistake to claim that the penal code has to prohibit it. While that is one way, the other is to look at the DROS requirements and see if you can submit a handgun DROS, as well as a long gun DROS, which you can't.

The summary is that 10% is giving bad advice and giving deceptive arguments (Feds) to support his position. 10% does not understand that if the CA Penal Code states how the DROS is to be submitted for a handgun and for a longgun, that it does not have to specifically prohibit something which not does follow the law.

I challenge 10% to tell the CA DOJ that he adds longguns to handgun purchases and adds longguns to a previous longgun sale and see what happens.

[tenpercentfirearms]

10%, it is offensive for you to falsely claim that I am not being honest. If I grabbed from a different section, it was by mistake. Quite clearly you are not accurate since you can not even get my name correct, which is a simple thing.

You moved down a whole section by mistake in your cutting and pasting? Are you serious? Come on Kemasa, that is down right ludicrous. Misspelling your name is a mistake. Splicing two completely different sections together is clearly not a mistake. You just got caught by someone who actually thinks for a living.

You are not being honest nor accurate when you say "Kemesa has also claimed that you cannot add long guns to a long gun DROS because of this single sale language and because the DROS software asks for a number and you can't change it in the software." This is completely FALSE since I stated that the reason that you can not add longguns is because it would be a different sale. I know that you claim that until it is all said and done it is the same sale, but that is that what a reasonable person would say that a single sale is.

Speak English man! You're contradicting yourself. Above you state, "As I said, common sense would state that you should be able to include longguns with a handgun purchase since a background check is being done and they don't keep track of the serial numbers, but the problem is that you expect that the law be based on common sense." I expect the law to be based on common sense? No actually, you think the law is based on common sense. I have always advocated that the law is the law. If it doesn't prohibit it, then they can't prosecute you for it. You are the one that is claiming a transaction only lasts for some specific set of time outside of the law based on "a reasonable person would say that a single sale is." WRONG and you know it. There is no reasonable person standard here. How long does the penal code state a single sale lasts? It doesn't. Therefore, my single sale can last as long as the 30 days are in process. Or, by federal guidelines, until I sign the 4473.

Why do you bring up the Feds in terms of the DROS? Don't you understand that the Feds have NOTHING to do with the CA DROS and CA law?

Oh you are right. I don't even fill out the 4473 anymore because I only have to follow state law. It is kind of scary when a dealer doesn't understand we are bound by two sets of rules. Sometimes those two sets vary with each other. CLEARLY if one set of rules does not prohibit an act, then you can do it. DROS and Penal Code makes no mention of how long a single transaction lasts. Sorry. It is that simple. However, the 4473 states a single transaction lasts as long as it takes for me to sign the 4473. Since state law doesn't define how long the transaction lasts, I could add long guns all the way up to the 30 day expiration date.

Clearly, this is to try to support your view, but is it bogus. You also bring up adding firearms to the 4473, but again this is bogus because it has nothing to do with CA law and the requirements for CA. At the end you again refer to the BATF, but why? This is NOT a BATF issue at all. The BATF does not know CA law and the CA DOJ does not know the Federal law. You need to contact the correct group.

Again, a serious lack of understanding on your part as I have explained.

The penal code states what a DROS submission is and it is separated into handguns and non-handguns. You want to merge the two, but it can not be done. As I said, common sense would state that you should be able to include longguns with a handgun purchase since a background check is being done and they don't keep track of the serial numbers, but the problem is that you expect that the law be based on common sense.

It is a mistake to claim that the penal code has to prohibit it. While that is one way, the other is to look at the DROS requirements and see if you can submit a handgun DROS, as well as a long gun DROS, which you can't.

Actually you can. You submit the handgun DROS and that meets every single requirement set forth in 12077(c)(1) through (3). You kill two birds with one stone and follow the federal rules and properly fill out the 4473. It really is that easy.

The summary is that 10% is giving bad advice and giving deceptive arguments (Feds) to support his position. 10% does not understand that if the CA Penal Code states how the DROS is to be submitted for a handgun and for a longgun, that it does not have to specifically prohibit something which not does follow the law.

I challenge 10% to tell the CA DOJ that he adds longguns to handgun purchases and adds longguns to a previous longgun sale and see what happens.

Well the main problem with your little challenge is if I am not doing those things, then I would by lying to them. However...

I called the CA DOJ on Wednesday on my way home, which is pretty much a worthless thing to do because they usually are going to speak off the record, the call was not recorded, and I don't have anything in writing. However, I wanted to play Kemasa's little game.

The agent I spoke to seemed to think that you could not add additional long guns to the DROS after they left the building. I asked how long a single sale lasts and they didn't have a penal code answer. I asked if I made a mistake on the DROS and put the wrong number if I could cross it out and put the correct number. They said that is fine as long as it doesn't happen very often. I don't know about yall, but that pretty much tells me there isn't really a way to stop us. However, he/she stated in the end it would probably be up for the lawyers to hash out if someone really wanted to make an issue of it.

Then I moved on to adding long guns to a handgun DROS. This agent actually agreed that his/her reading is that is legal as long as it was on the same day before they left the shop. I thought that was interesting as they seem to think a single sale lasts while the customer is in the shop. Again, no reference to where that comes from.

The main reason I think this is interesting is that this agent thinks the number of long guns you put on a long gun DROS is significant; however, on a handgun DROS, you wouldn't be putting down how many long guns you DROSed. So the issue of adding long guns would be moot since they would have no clue how many you added. A flaw in their reasoning.

So according to one nameless agent at the DOJ, you can't add additional long guns, but you can piggyback long guns onto handgun DROS. If you guys want, call and ask the same questions and let's see how many answers we get. Also keep in mind that of course agents are going to tell you that you can't add additional long guns because they want more of your money. Ask them if a customer can change their mind and if you can cross out the number and make it less. They have no problems with that for some reason. You would think since the penal code doesn't give you permission to do that, you would be forced to sell the guns to the customer anyway, right Kemasa?

In the end you will have to know the penal code and relevant sections and be ready to defend yourself if they try and write you up for it. Is that worth the $25 savings to your customers? You have to make that decision.

I think it is clear from my arguments that they cannot pin you down on this, but that doesn't mean they might not try.

[kemasa]

10%, you are making false statements. I looked at the Penal in a text file, searching for a keyword. Then I went to the top to find the number. If I grabbed from two sections, it was a mistake, but the simple fact is that those are sections in the Penal code, so your personal attack is unwarranted.

You say that you made a mistake in my name, yet you claim that I could not have made a mistake. You are a hypocrite.

Again, you make false a false statement when you claim that "No actually, you think the law is based on common sense". You have NO basis for that and your comments are purely an attack in order to try to support your position.

You are completely wrong when you say "If it doesn't prohibit it, then they can't prosecute
you for it". The law states how you are to process a handgun purchase and how to process a longgun purchase. If you do not follow the law, then they can prosecute and the law does not have to say that you can not include a longgun with a handgun purchase. That is a simple concept.

You are also wrong about a single transaction. In part of your support, you include the 4473 requirements, which does not apply. Talk to an attorney andtalk to the CA DOJ and see if they agree with your view. Federal guidelines do NOT apply, why can't you understand that????

You say "Oh you are right. I don't even fill out the 4473 anymore because I only have to
follow state law.", then you go onto to say "It is kind of scary when a dealer doesn't understand we are bound by two sets of rules." Clearly. you don't understand the difference between state and federal law. You try to use Federal law to justify violating state law. I never claimed that you did not have to follow Federal, so your comments are just plain stupid and false.

[tenpercentfirearms]

10%, you are making false statements. I looked at the Penal in a text file, searching for a keyword. Then I went to the top to find the number. If I grabbed from two sections, it was a mistake, but the simple fact is that those are sections in the Penal code, so your personal attack is unwarranted.

You say that you made a mistake in my name, yet you claim that I could not have made a mistake. You are a hypocrite.

Ok, you mistakenly cut and pasted two sections of penal code together. Again, it shows how thorough you are in reading the sections and understanding them.

Again, you make false a false statement when you claim that "No actually, you think the law is based on common sense". You have NO basis for that and your comments are purely an attack in order to try to support your position.

Actually I quoted your own words for you. It appears you are now completely ignoring the facts. I will quote you again.

This is completely FALSE since I stated that the reason that you can not add longguns is because it would be a different sale. I know that you claim that until it is all said and done it is the same sale, but that is that what a reasonable person would say that a single sale is.

Claiming that the length of a reasonable sale is up to the definition of a "reasonable person" is relying on common sense to determine what the law is. Again, your job here is simple. Show us in the penal code where it defines how long a single transaction lasts. Reasonable definition or common sense does not apply.

You are completely wrong when you say "If it doesn't prohibit it, then they can't prosecute
you for it". The law states how you are to process a handgun purchase and how to process a longgun purchase. If you do not follow the law, then they can prosecute and the law does not have to say that you can not include a longgun with a handgun purchase. That is a simple concept.

LOL. Are you serious. You are really going to claim that it is a simple concept that if there is no law prohibiting an act, that the authorities can still prosecute you when you have committed no crime. Please don't change the issue anymore and specifically answer this question. What penal code section are they going to charge me with for running a handgun DROS and piggybacking long guns onto it. No more vague references to rogue agencies charging people for laws that are not written down.

As I have stated and as I have confirmed with a DOJ agent, there is nothing that prohibits you from adding a long gun to a handgun DROS. As I have stated, if you run a handgun DROS as stipulated in PC 12077(b)(1) through (3), you are also satisfying all of the requirements of PC 12077(c)(1) through (3). Yet you seem to keep ignoring these facts. So, kemasa, here is your chance to be the DA. Charge me with something. No more dancing around the issue, unless that is you simply don't have a case.

You are also wrong about a single transaction. In part of your support, you include the 4473 requirements, which does not apply. Talk to an attorney andtalk to the CA DOJ and see if they agree with your view. Federal guidelines do NOT apply, why can't you understand that????

Are you really this dense? The state does not stipulate how long a single sale lasts. Therefore there is nothing in state law I have to worry about except the expiration of a DROS transaction after 30 days. I am not using federal law to follow CA state law. I am simply following federal law.

Again, I ask you, how long does a single sale last? You to this date have still yet to show how long it lasts. Your own rebuttal has been "what a reasonable person believe" which is in no way used in this penal code section (yes, it is used in other sections of the penal code and as is apparent you seem to like to cut from other unrelated sections and just throw them in to help your case). I even did as you stated and asked the DOJ. They seemed to think it lasted a day, but again, they could not provide this definition.

You and the authorities are simply making up what you believe how long a single sale lasts. Sorry, that isn't going to cut it. My lawyer will rip the DOJ and the DA to shreds with such fuzzy application of the law. Not only that, when the DA cannot show a definition of the length of a single sale, my lawyer is going to show I have been acting in good faith and following the clear federal guidelines of how long a single sale lasts. Absent of a clear guideline by this state, I am following federal law. It shows a trend of following the law which is going to testify to my good character.

You say "Oh you are right. I don't even fill out the 4473 anymore because I only have to
follow state law.", then you go onto to say "It is kind of scary when a dealer doesn't understand we are bound by two sets of rules." Clearly. you don't understand the difference between state and federal law. You try to use Federal law to justify violating state law. I never claimed that you did not have to follow Federal, so your comments are just plain stupid and false.

Clearly I don't understand the difference? Your statements and positions on this entire subject I think demonstrate whose comments are just plain stupid and false.

So no more side issues. Answer us this.

1)Specifically, where does the state define the time length of a single sale?

2)What penal code sections would a person be charged with for running a long gun DROS on a handgun DROS?

Nothing else you say or do matters except those two items. Stop dancing around the subject and prove your point. I called the DOJ as you told me to and they said handguns and long guns can mix. You have yet to address this in your replies. I wonder why?

[kemasa]

You just love to warp things into what you want them to be in order to try to attack others, namely me, and try to make the world fit your view. The law says:

(4) One firearm transaction shall be reported on each record of sale document. For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns.

Please explain how you can interpret that to mean that you can sell a firearm on one day and then sell another on another day and claim that is a single sale.

Please see the dictionary definition of the word single: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/single

You clearly don't understand the law. Do you honestly think that the law has to prohibit an act to make it illegal and that is the only way to make it illegal? If the law states how you must do something, then if you do not follow that, you are violating the law and can be charged. There are many examples of this, but I doubt that you would get any of them.

12077 states what information has to be submitted for a handgun and a non-handgun. It states what must be submitted for each and if you try to combine then you are not doing that.

First, you need to understand what a firearm transaction is. You need to know the difference between a transaction and a single sale. If you were to understand that, then you would understand that you could have a single sale, but which involves multiple firearm transactions. Each firearm transaction must be reported. If you sell one or more longguns and a handgun, then you have two firearm transactions to report. If you only report the handgun transaction, you are failing to follow the law.

If you do not report each firearm transaction, then you are violating 12077. Since I am not a DA, nor part of the CA DOJ, I clearly can not charge you with anything.

It is rather amusing that you want to claim that a single sale can last some period of time. What part of "single" don't you understand???

The aspect to the same day relates to the discount you get for multiple handguns.

BTW, there are certain people at the CA DOJ I trust with their answers and others that I don't trust so much. So, it really depends on who you talked to. But you can still do as I challenged to do and call the CA DOJ and tell them that you are adding longguns after the DROS is submitted and that you are including longguns to a handgun DROS. Give them the documentation and see what happens. If you don't want to do this, then post the 4473 transaction number with the details of what you did and I am sure that someone will be in contact shortly.

1)Specifically, where does the state define the time length of a single sale? The dictionary. Do you really need each and every word used in the Penal Code to be defined?

2)What penal code sections would a person be charged with for running a long gun DROS on a handgun DROS? 12077.

[halifax]

I don't get it. What do you care so much how Wes runs his business? He seems to have a defense ready to go IF any agency wants to contest him. Obviously, he thinks there are grey areas here.

BTW, the tax man says a sale isn't complete until the buyer takes possession. If there is a single receipt, why wouldn't that be a single transaction?

[kemasa]

The reason is because he is breaking the law and if he gets arrested for illegally transfering firearms, the liberal news media might have a field day with it. I also would not want to see a FFL get shut down either, there are enough going out of business.

If he should also not announce to the world what he is doing and should not promote others to do what he is doing.

Who do you think it will help to see him arrested on the 6 o'clock news? I am sure that the Brady Bunch would love it.

In regards to firearms, the transaction is different than a sale. Each handgun is a transaction and each multiple non-handguns single sale are a transaction. When the sale is complete is a different story.