FFL Fees

[dtrigueros]

Quick question. Can FFl's legally charge additional fees for PPT in CA? I was under the impression that the fees are set by the state and cannot be piled on. Today I completed a PPT at an OC shop (not sure if okay to name) and the owner charged the buyer $150 for the transaction, well over the $49.17 limit. Is this legal. If not, is it reportable?

[mdr110]

PPT are 47.19 total for one firearm (37.19 DROS + 10 goes to FFL).

There are non enforcement from DOJ so many FFL do whatever they want. Only recourse is if buyer takes that FFL to small claims court or out the FFL so gun community don't do any business there. Other than that, not much you can do about it. Sure you can call DOJ but it goes no where. No enforcement for number of years now.

[Tere_Hanges]

Holy crap $150 is excessive. They must have charged him their FFL transfer fee on top of the PPT fees. Wow! Never heard of that before. Are you sure the buyer didnt buy anything else like a stripped AR lower?

Some shops will charge an extra $10-$20 and call it a "storage" or "processing" fee.

DOJ doesnt care, they dont want people buying and selling guns, the less PPTs the better in their view.

[Garv]

Name the shop.

We need to know who to avoid.

[Stoney Creek Arms]

Yesterday, FFLs had a webinar basic training with the DOJ. DOJ mentioned that we can only charge $37.19 DROS Fee + $10 for each additional firearm on PPTs. We can't charge storage fees until after the 10-day waiting period is up.

My advice is to call around or ask before you do a PPT.

[9Cal_OC]

And you let the buyer pay that? Even though you had some suspicion it wasn’t right?

[Tyke8319]

There have been innumerable threads that cover various aspects of PPT's. Might trying to resurrect some of those to get a complete picture of what CAN and CAN'T transpire during a PPT.


You never did explain what all the additional "fees" were for. Obviously, that would help.

[dtrigueros]

To address the various points and questions. The shop is Top Gun Armory in Tustin. Secondly, I vehemently objected to the buyer paying it but the buyer insisted because he really wanted the pistol. The shop owner, Mohamed, just said that the fees are ?fees my shop charges on all PPTs.? He would not itemize anything. But $100. That?s crazy. I don?t really care that my buyer was inclined to pay. My issue is a bigger one and thinking about the unwitting consumer.

[9Cal_OC]

Who picked the FFL?

Should have gone down to Ammo Bros.

[edgerly779]

Name ffl. Someone not to bright.

[Tyke8319]

I suggest you contact the DOJ and report the issue.

[Ammo Brothers]

Our store does not charge any extra fees, including for layaway. Unlike other shops, we will not charge you for paperwork or storage fees for transfer or PPT.

Who picked the FFL?

Should have gone down to Ammo Bros.

[edgerly779]

I reported 2 ffls overcharging. Traders in Reseda and Marshall training & range in LA Both tried to charge 85 for ppt dros. Said they were transfers.

[Fergiejaf]

I wanted to weigh in on this due to discussions I have had with I/O and Field Reps through DOJ. These are the same people that audit the FFL Dealers.

DOJ is only concerned with the posting and charging of fees that relate to what DOJ requires.
This is what you would most likely see at a FFL shop or some variation of and this is what DOJ would look for: https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...earms-fees.pdf

Other Dealer fees may not be on this form and must be separate from this fee schedule. DOJ does not want the consumer to think that DOJ is requiring any other fees than what is listed.
Dealers are free to charge anything they wish as long as it is not listed as a DOJ fee (Transaction Receipts should indicate the same).
In my personal opinion if a dealer charges a fee to a Customer for buying a firearm online and having it shipped to that dealer to run the background check, what would be that cost? Its the same process as if a PPT was being done, except more paperwork and a few extra steps are involved for the PPT hence the extra $10.
Some people might not agree, but how is a dealer going to survive by making $10 on transaction that can take up to 30 mins to complete after paperwork is filled out, firearm logged/verified, ID's, multiple copies made, then after 10 days spending another 10-15mins releasing the firearm (logging out , SHD etc.)

CA is suffering already with all the extra regulations being put on dealers.. Many FFL contributors on this site have closed up shops just this year due to new policies and enhanced fines for errors. If you are not happy with your local FFL dealers fees, then hopefully your able to shop around. Reporting an FFL for over charging will result in the DOJ reviewing for proper fee listing, which most dealers are aware of and have these fees posted properly as they should. Its not a violation and its not against any law. Might be bad for their business to charge large fees, but maybe they have too because they cant sell firearms at the same price as online retailers can. Even in this next year with the 11% excise tax going in to affect, its going to hurt dealers and consumers. So please, support your dealers. I don't see too many taking lavish vacations or driving Bentleys..

[Quiet]

There are non enforcement from DOJ so many FFL do whatever they want. Only recourse is if buyer takes that FFL to small claims court or out the FFL so gun community don't do any business there. Other than that, not much you can do about it. Sure you can call DOJ but it goes no where. No enforcement for number of years now.

Before 2023, all CA DOJ BOG would do is give warnings (verbal, then written) to the CA FFL dealer for this type of activity, because they deemed it was not a big enough violation to revoke a dealer's license.
^The unintended consequences of this type of enforcement was CA FFL dealers willfully ignoring the warnings and continuing to add their own fees to PPTs.

Because CA laws were changed, starting 07-01-2022, the CA DOJ BOF was granted the legal ability to fine CA FFL dealers for this type of activity. [PC 26800(b)]
^This means a CA FFL dealer can now be fined up to $1000 for the first time they get caught adding their own fees to PPTs and be fined up to $3000 for doing it after they receive a written warning from CA DOJ to stop doing it.

IMO...
Since CA DOJ BOF can now fine CA FFL dealers for this type of activity (charging additional fees), there is now an incentive to report CA FFL dealers that do this, because those CA FFL dealers will now face an actual penalty (fine) for doing it and not just a slap on the wrist (verbal/written warning).




Penal Code 26800
(a) A license under this chapter is subject to forfeiture for a violation of any of the prohibitions and requirements of this article, except those stated in the following provisions:
(1) Subdivision (c) of Section 26890.
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 26890.
(3) Subdivision (b) of Section 26900.
(b) The department may assess a civil fine against a licensee, in an amount not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), for any breach of a prohibition or requirement of this article that subjects the license to forfeiture under subdivision (a). The department may assess a civil fine, in an amount not to exceed three thousand dollars ($3,000), for a violation of a prohibition or requirement of this article that subjects the license to forfeiture under subdivision (a), for either of the following:
(1) The licensee has received written notification from the department regarding the violation and subsequently failed to take corrective action in a timely manner.
(2) The licensee is otherwise determined by the department to have knowingly or with gross negligence violated the prohibition or requirement.
(c) The department may adopt regulations setting fine amounts and providing a process for a licensee to appeal a fine assessed pursuant to subdivision (b).
(d) Moneys received by the department pursuant to this section shall be deposited into the Dealers? Record of Sale Special Account of the General Fund, to be available, upon appropriation, for expenditure by the department to offset the reasonable costs of firearms-related regulatory and enforcement activities related to the sale, purchase, manufacturing, lawful or unlawful possession, loan, or transfer of firearms pursuant to any provision listed in Section 16580.
(e) This section shall become operative on July 1, 2022.

Penal Code 26875
A licensee shall post conspicuously within the licensed premises a detailed list of each of the following:
(a) All charges required by governmental agencies for processing firearm transfers required by Section 12806, Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050), and Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6.
(b) All fees that the licensee charges pursuant to Section 12806 and Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

Penal Code 26880
A licensee shall not misstate the amount of fees charged by a governmental agency pursuant to Section 12806, Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050), and Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6.

Penal Code 26883
(a) A licensee shall not charge a restocking or other return-related fee of more than 5 percent of the purchase price of the firearm if the buyer decides to cancel the purchase of the firearm during the 10-day period imposed pursuant to Section 26815.
(b) This section shall not apply to a special order firearm by the buyer.
(c) For purposes of this section, ?special order? means a specific request by the buyer for the licensee to order a firearm that is not available to the licensee.

Penal Code 28055
(a) For a sale, loan, or transfer conducted pursuant to this chapter, the purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm.
(b) For temporary storage of a firearm pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 28050, the seller, transferor, or person loaning a firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm.
(c) No other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this chapter, except for the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 23690 and 28300 and Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set forth in Section 31650.
(d) The dealer may not charge any additional fees.
(e) Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee.