PPT fees

[magsnubby]

Is there a set fee an FFL can charge for an PPT? I was told by an FFL that by law they can only charge $35 for a transfer. I know one FFL that charges $50 "Because that's just our fee ".

[Fjold]

He's breaking the law because no one will do anything about it.

[magsnubby]

He's breaking the law because no one will do anything about it.

I will. What needs to be done?

[ke6guj]

Yes, the maximum fee for a PPT transfer is $35. $25 DROS + $10 max dealer fee. It is only a PPT if both parties are CA-residents and both appear in front of the dealer at the same time. Anything else, and it isn't a PPT, and the dealer is not limited to a $10 dealer fee, but can charge any fee he wishes.

[ke6guj]

I will. What needs to be done?

If you are sure it is a PPT, you might want to print out the PC and the FAQ that mention the $35 max fee. Some people have done this and received a refund for the overcharge. Others have called CADOJ to complain about it.

It is a misdemeanor to charge over $35 total for a PPT, so the dealer should be following the law.

What fees can I charge for handling a Private Party Transfer (PPT)?
If the transaction is a PPT, you are restricted to charging no more than $25.00 in State fees described and $10.00 per firearm for conducting the PPT. For example:

For a PPT involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees are $35.00 for the first handgun, and $31.00 for each subsequent handgun.
For PPTs involving one or more long guns, the State fees are limited to $25.00 for the whole transaction plus $10.00 dealer fee per firearm transferred.
(PC section 12082)

12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

[kermit315]

another one huh, color me surprised.

[magsnubby]

If you are sure it is a PPT...

It was most definitely a PPT. When questioned about the $50 fee (yeah. 50 bucks) they just gave a lame explanation of "That's what we charge".

I will be calling CADOJ. We are both Cal residents and we were both there to do the transfer.

[kemasa]

It is only a PPT if both parties are CA-residents and both appear in front of the dealer at the same time.

This is not correct. The parties can appear at the dealer at different times. Obviously, the seller has to appear first and has to sign the DROS worksheet, which is attached to the DROS that the buyer signs after it is submitted. This is often how consignment sales, especially if the firearm is not on the certified list, are processed. Call the CA DOJ to confirm this.

[ke6guj]

OK, maybe they don't need to both appear at the dealer at the same time, but they both must appear at the same dealer, correct? That "split-PPT" method may or may not work. But when does a "delayed PPT" as you brought up become a "cosignment" of sorts in which the FFL can charge a fee for, as he can for a cosignment sale?

[kemasa]

Yes, they must both appear at the same dealer.

I am not sure of what you mean by "split-PPT".

The consignment depends on how the DROS is submitted. The FFL gets part of the sale price, so the FFL fee does not matter as much, but even if it is transferred as a PPT, in that case sales tax must be collected since the FFL got involved with the sales price, as well as finding a buyer. The only reason for the FFL to submit it as a PPT for a consignment is when the firearm is not on the certified list, which would limit the fee.

[ke6guj]

Yes, they must both appear at the same dealer.

I am not sure of what you mean by "split-PPT".

"split-PPT" was a thought that you could go to one dealer, fill out the DROS worksheet and send it, along with a non-rostered handgun, to a second dealer, who would finish the worksheet and DROS it to the buyer. A way to PPT non-rostered handgun for buyers and sellers who were too far apart to both go to the same FFL.

Aparantly a few FFL are/were willing to a "split-PPT" but I think that CADOJ told them "no more".

The consignment depends on how the DROS is submitted. The FFL gets part of the sale price, so the FFL fee does not matter as much, but even if it is transferred as a PPT, in that case sales tax must be collected since the FFL got involved with the sales price, as well as finding a buyer. The only reason for the FFL to submit it as a PPT for a consignment is when the firearm is not on the certified list, which would limit the fee.

AFAIK, there is some grey area in the cosignment sales rules. I don't recall if hte PC actually allows for it, or that CADOJ allows for it because they'd rather the sales be DROSed, instead of sold on the street.

[kemasa]

I think that the CA DOJ allows for a consignment sale as a PPT because there is really no difference between that and a PPT when the people come at separate times.

It would be hard to prove that the seller did not sign the DROS worksheet at the buyer's FFL, but it is certainly not worth the risk.

One thing that is funny is that it is possible to submit a DROS at a gunshow without having to swipe the drivers license, but it is also said that the FFL has to read it in when the buyer comes to pick it up. There is instructions to save the info to a text file. You can swipe it and if it does not read, you have to copy it. The funny thing is that there is a requirement that you swipe it, even if it no longer makes sense to do so, but it is the law.

[ke6guj]

I think that the CA DOJ allows for a consignment sale as a PPT because there is really no difference between that and a PPT when the people come at separate times.

true. But then how can a dealer charge more than a $10 fee if it is DROSed as a PPT?

It would be hard to prove that the seller did not sign the DROS worksheet at the buyer's FFL, but it is certainly not worth the risk.

yup, the buyer's FFL would be at the mercy of the seller's FFL, that the correct info is there, etc.

[kemasa]

For the FFL fee, the FFL could not charge more than $10 plus the DROS if it is submitted as a PPT, but the person has to pay for the firearm and that is not limited, so the extra money can be put there. It matters how you word it, not the total price.

There are many things which could be said about a PPT and ways to get around the requirements, but there is nothing gained by the FFL and the risk is simply not worth it. I thought about giving some examples, but I don't want to give anyone some ideas.

[kermit315]

There is no way to "get around the requirements" as you put it. Its in black and white. Tax collection on the sale price of the gun is a different beast.

PPT fees are black and white. Show me an exception in the PC that allows you to charge more.