PPT shipping question

[Terminator2]

I've received conflicting information regarding a calif non-ffl shipping a long gun (sale) in calif to a calif ffl to facilitate a ppt.

I was told that the the ffl can receive it, complete the ppt with the buyer, and the buyer would pick it up in 10 days, and that the seller was not required to be present at the ppt as long as the ffl had the sellers information (a copy of his real id).

I've read elsewhere that both the seller and buyer must be present at the ffl location for the ppt.

I recall buying a .45 pistol on a gun forum back in 2011 from a non-ffl out of state and he just sent it to my ffl here in calif and I completed all the DROS at my ffl and all was legit. Has that changed or are both the buyer and seller now required to be physically present at the time of the ppt location?

I did some research on ppt's and found this Calf Penal code section dealing with it. In reading the text, it doesn't have any language requiring the both the seller and buyer to be present at the same time. Is this section out of date or am I missing some language elsewhere?

"PENAL CODE
SECTION 28050-28070

28050. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to
26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply
with Section 27545.
(b) The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm
shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession
of that firearm.
(c) The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or
transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not
prohibited, in accordance with Section 27540."

Any insight from the ffl members would be appreciated.

[hermosabeach]

PPT- Both buyers must be residents of California.
Both need to be at the FFL in person.

I don't know of any FFL who will do a PPT where the seller was not present

[hermosabeach]

SALES AND TRANSFERS OF FIREARMS
In California, only licensed California firearm dealers who possess a valid Certificate of Eligibility (COE) are authorized to engage in retail sales of firearms.

These retail sales require the purchaser to provide personal identifier information for the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) document that the
firearm dealer must submit to the DOJ. There is a mandatory 10-day waiting period before the firearms dealer can deliver the firearm to the purchaser. During this 10-day waiting period, the DOJ
conducts a firearm eligibility background check to ensure the purchaser is not prohibited from lawfully possessing firearms. Although there are exceptions, generally all firearm purchasers must be at least 21 years of age to purchase any firearm. As of January 1, 2020, you must be at least 21 years
of age to purchase a semiautomatic centerfire rifle (unless you have a law enforcement or military exemption).

Additionally, purchasers must be California residents with a valid driver license or identification card issued by the California Department of Motor Vehicles. It is illegal for any person who is not a California licensed firearm dealer to sell or transfer a firearm to another non-licensed person (a private party) unless the sale or transfer is completed through a licensed California firearm dealer. A “Private Party Transfer” (PPT) can be conducted at any licensed California firearm dealer.
The buyer and seller must complete the required DROS document in person

[hermosabeach]

It's sad that CA makes the laws so difficult to find...

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/cfl2021.pdf

[Quiet]

For CA...

A PPT equates to a face to face transfer between CA residents facilitated by a CA FFL dealer.

If the firearm is shipped, then it's not a PPT and considered a type of dealer transfer.

If one of the parties involved is a non-resident of CA, then it's not a PPT and considered a type of dealer transfer.

Since it's a type of dealer transfer, the CA FFL dealer can legally charge any amount of money to facilitate that transfer and if the firearm is a handgun, then it needs to be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale or be exempt from it (LEO, C&R, OTP, SAE, SSE2).

[Librarian]

It's sad that CA makes the laws so difficult to find...

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/cfl2021.pdf

... which is why all the PPT code is in a sticky in this forum, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=725126

Generally, all the CA Codes are on line at http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes.xhtml

[Librarian]

I've received conflicting information regarding a calif non-ffl shipping a long gun (sale) in calif to a calif ffl to facilitate a ppt.

I was told that the the ffl can receive it, complete the ppt with the buyer, and the buyer would pick it up in 10 days, and that the seller was not required to be present at the ppt as long as the ffl had the sellers information (a copy of his real id).

I've read elsewhere that both the seller and buyer must be present at the ffl location for the ppt.

Other members have answered with details, but the problem here is you are using "ppt" in a way that is different from CA usage.

'ppt' in other places is 'person to person transfer'. That's not CA - here, it's "Private Party Transfer". See Quiet's post, above.

[Terminator2]

Thanks to all of you gentlemen for your most valuable information. Greatly appreciated.

[Nardo1895]

One small clarification. The buyer and seller don't have to be at the FFL at the same time. The buyer can drop the firearm off and complete a DROS Worksheet. The Seller can come in later and complete the DROS. But as stated elsewhere in this string, both have to be CA residents for it to be a PPT, and the firearm has to be dropped off by the seller - not mailed.

[Wlee]

Another clarification, your original post said it was for a transfer of a long gun. There is no issue of shipping it to another FFL for the buyer to DROS so long as it is in CA Legal configuration(must be sent this way, recieving FFL cannot add compliance parts unless its an outof state middleman.) is not a "named" assault weapon. It will not be called a PPT but you do not have to be there for the transfer.

All the previously posted information above is correct for ANY PPT involving a handgun unless it is exempt via C&R or you possess LEO Credentials.

[Terminator2]

Another clarification, your original post said it was for a transfer of a long gun. There is no issue of shipping it to another FFL for the buyer to DROS so long as it is in CA Legal configuration(must be sent this way, recieving FFL cannot add compliance parts unless its an outof state middleman.) is not a "named" assault weapon. It will not be called a PPT but you do not have to be there for the transfer.

All the previously posted information above is correct for ANY PPT involving a handgun unless it is exempt via C&R or you possess LEO Credentials.

Thanks for your info, but just to clarify the facts. In my case, the "long gun" in question is a stock semi-auto Mossberg turkey shotgun, and both the buyer and I are Calif residents, he is in So Calif and I'm in Nor Calif. I was told by an FFL that it would be legal to ship the shotgun myself via UPS to his FFL in So Calif and to include a copy of my Calif Real ID. My confusion is over the mechanics of the PPT, in that there is no language in the current law, PC 28050, mentioning any requirement that both the buyer and seller be present at the same time and at the same FFL for the DROS. I do see in the above provided "DOJ summary of the gun laws" such verbiage, and wonder if DOJ wrote a "regulation" to the actual statute. But, I guess it's pointless to discuss the matter any further and a moot point, since none of the FFL's the buyer in So. Calif has contacted said that they would accept the shipment of the shotgun from a non-FFL.

I do see one difference in me shipping the shotgun vs an FFL shipping the shotgun, is that if an FFL ships it the buyer will have to pay a Calif Sales/Use tax on the transaction.

[SkyHawk]

Thanks for your info, but just to clarify the facts. In my case, the "long gun" in question is a stock semi-auto Mossberg turkey shotgun, and both the buyer and I are Calif residents, he is in So Calif and I'm in Nor Calif. I was told by an FFL that it would be legal to ship the shotgun myself via UPS to his FFL in So Calif and to include a copy of my Calif Real ID. My confusion is over the mechanics of the PPT, in that there is no language in the current law, PC 28050, mentioning any requirement that both the buyer and seller be present at the same time and at the same FFL for the DROS. I do see in the above provided "DOJ summary of the gun laws" such verbiage, and wonder if DOJ wrote a "regulation" to the actual statute. But, I guess it's pointless to discuss the matter any further and a moot point, since none of the FFL's the buyer in So. Calif has contacted said that they would accept the shipment of the shotgun from a non-FFL.

I do see one difference in me shipping the shotgun vs an FFL shipping the shotgun, is that if an FFL ships it the buyer will have to pay a Calif Sales/Use tax on the transaction.

Stop using the word PPT. Never use the word PPT when shipping is involved in a CA transfer. You will only confuse everyone including FFLs and get bad answers.

You are trying to do a DEALER TRANSFER. Whenever there is shipping involved, you say "DEALER TRANSFER".

Now that we have that out of the way....

It is perfectly legal for a non-licensee (aka regular Joe) to ship a gun to a licensee (aka FFL). However some FFLs will not accept shipments from non-licensees, and that is their right. The *only* answer that matters is the answer from the receiving FFL. And *they* will tell you what documents they want included, there is no standard. They can ask for a notarized form, a birth certificate, a letter from your Rabbi - whatever they ask for is what you send. Usually they only want a legible color copy of the sender's DL.

In Socal talk to Ace Pawn, Shoot Socal, or 2A Zone - they will all probably accept shipments from non-licensees so long as their instructions are followed by both parties.

As to the tax issue, you are not entirely correct. It will be up to the receiving FFL how they handle the tax, regardless of who ships it. Generally speaking, if the gun was bought from a person (regardless who ships the gun) who is not engaged in the regular business of selling firearms, or was gifted or inherited etc, then no tax should be collected. But different FFLs have different methods for interpreting tax laws and the documentation around a sale (invoices, bill of sale etc), so YMMV.

One clear difference between a FFL shipping the gun and a non-FFL shipping the gun, is the non-FFL does not need a CFLC approval to ship, where a FFL does. Some FFLs (even CA FFLs) simply will not deal with CFLC so that is sometimes an obstacle.

And lastly - know that a DEALER TRANSFER has no set dealer fees. It can run from $40 to $200 per gun, it depends on the receiving FFL.

[Terminator2]

Roger all that SkyHawk, thanks for the clarification and the valuable information.