do I need an FFL for black powder guns sales?

[Jaeger117]

I know this stupid question sorry in advance for this, but I got some FFLs as friends and one told me I need to do a ppt for a Pietta 1860 army revolver and a modern muzzleloader tracker 209 that I'm selling, and the other one said no I don't. and I know it's California where they put new laws every year, so you never know. I would like other FFLs feedback on this please and thank you.

[Quiet]

Under CA laws...

An "antique firearm" is still considered a firearm.

However, because of it's "antique" status it is granted specific exemptions to CA firearm laws.

If your blackpowder firearm meets the Federal [18 USC 921(a)(16)] and CA definition of an antique firearm [PC 16170(b)], then it does not have to be transferred through a CA FFL dealer [PC 16520(d)(12)].

There are some blackpowder firearms that do not meet the Federal or CA's definition of an antique firearm and they are required to be transferred through a FFL dealer.


Under CA laws...
"Antique firearms" [PC 16170(b)] are only exempt from the following CA firearm laws:
01. Infreqent transfers. [PC 16520(d)(1)]
02. CA DROS. [PC 16520(d)(2)]
03. Operation of law transfers. [PC 16520(d)(3)]
04. "used firearm" transfer laws. [PC 16520(d)(4)]
05. Unloaded handgun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(5)]
06. Unloaded long gun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(6)]
07. Requirement to be a CA FFL dealer in order to transfer it. [PC 16520(d)(7)]
08. CA FFL dealer requirements when transferring firearms. [PC 16520(d)(8)]
09. Required minimum age to transfer. [PC 16520(d)(9)]
10. Required identifying marks/engravings on handguns. [PC 16520(d)(10)]
11. 10 day waiting period. [PC 16520(d)(11)]
12. PPT requirement to transfer through CA FFL dealer. [PC 16520(d)(12)]
13. Registration requirement for importing into CA and requirement to use CA FFL dealer to legally import into CA. [PC 16520(d)(13)]
14. Requirement to be licensed as a manufacturer in order to legally make in CA. [PC 16520(d)(14)]
15. Residential firearm storage requirements. [PC 16520(d)(15)]
16. "home built firearm" marking/engraving and registration requirements. [PC 16520(d)(16)]

In addition to the above, specific types of "antique firearms" [PC 16170(c)] are also exempt from these additional CA firearm laws: [PC 17700]
01. Camouflaging firearm container laws.
02. Cane gun laws.
03. Unrecognizable firearm laws.
04. Short Barrel Rifle laws.
05. Short Barrel Shotgun laws.
06. Unconventional pistol laws.
07. Undetectable firearm laws.
08. Wallet gun laws.
09. Zip gun laws.


Penal Code 16170
(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, “antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, “antique firearm” means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[Nardo1895]

The 1860 Army should not be a problem unless you are selling it with a conversion cylinder. For example, anyone can buy an 1860 from Taylors, but if you order it with a conversion cylinder they will only ship to a FFL.

I'm not familiar with the Tracker 209, but I have run into this issue when transferring modern Thompson Center muzzle loaders. Converting these to centerfire just involves swapping the barrel. I got conflicting directions from ATF and DOJ. ATF told me as long as its a muzzleloader when I get it, it doesn't go in my A&D book and it doesn't have to go through a FFL on the buyer's end. DOJ told me that because it can be easily converted, it needs to go through a FFL on the buyer's end (if sold in CA). Its been a few years but as I recall ATF had a bulletin or maybe a FAQ that contradicted what my ATF rep told me.

As a result, I treat muzzle loaders like the Thompson Center as modern and subject to 4473 and DROS. I may be wrong in doing it that way but the ambiguity from ATF and DOJ concerns me. I don't know if the 209 is convertible but perhaps that is what has your FFL friends hung up?

[Jaeger117]

thank you nardo and quiet that helps a lot have a great day you two

[edgerly779]

FFLS and cops give wrong info all the time.

[Burbur]

Now who decides what ammunition is "no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade"?

I have a few antique aged firearms chambered in .32-20 and it sure seems like the ammunition is no longer manufactured.

[sass2924]

Neither require an FFL.

[Tyke8319]

Now who decides what ammunition is "no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade"?

I have a few antique aged firearms chambered in .32-20 and it sure seems like the ammunition is no longer manufactured.

Remington currently makes .32-20 seasonally (once a year). It is available thru other sources.

[sass2924]

Remington currently makes .32-20 seasonally (once a year). It is available thru other sources.

I saw an FFL advertising a new mfg. Winchester 1886 in 45-90 as an antique because he said the ammo was not readily available. Would not want to have that found on an audit.

[Nardo1895]

Now who decides what ammunition is "no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade"?

I have a few antique aged firearms chambered in .32-20 and it sure seems like the ammunition is no longer manufactured.

This has been discussed in a number of prior postings. There is a lot of confusion over the definition of what qualifies as an antique. The "ammunition no longer manufactured" definition for antiques only applies to NFA firearms. The GCA wording for antiques is different. Under the GCA a Winchester 94 made in 1898 and chambered in 30-30 is an antique. The trouble is that I think DOJ ignores this distinction. I also think a lot of FFLs don't want to take a chance so they require GCA antiques to still be DROSed.

[Tyke8319]

Just to confuse thew issue, I was advised at a SHOT SHOW some years back at the ATF booth that if a firearm accepts modern ammo, it must be transferred thru an FFL....