Buying guns in a different state as an FFL?

[Kieran]

I am an 07/02 FFL/SOT, with my business registered in California. I'm in the process of moving to Georgia right now, and I'm trying to figure out the legal specifics on sourcing a gun from a store here, as an FFL.

My understanding was that I can buy a firearm from a gun store and transfer it directly to me, without any need to fill out a 4473.

When I tried to inquire about this at a local Georgia gun store, I was ultimately turned away. At first they said I needed a Georgia license, but then they just said that their boss didn't want to do extra paperwork. What extra paperwork? As far as I know we would just have to log the firearm in our respective acquisitions and dispositions books. It would be LESS paperwork than filling out a 4473.

I snooped around online and I can't find any state or federal laws prohibiting a transfer like this. How does an FFL conduct business at an out-of-state gun show if these types of transfers aren't possible? I thought the entire purpose of being an FFL was so you could do FFL to FFL transfers like this. Am I missing something?

[ugimports]

You do it same as if they shipped it to you. Bring in your license, they log it out to the FFL and provide you the CA DOJ Firearm Shipment Approval number.

Keep in mind this is a lot of extra work to some out of state FFLs if they haven't signed up yet and see it as a major PITA.

No 4473, no NICS check.

[Kieran]

Ah, I see. I hadn't thought about my CFD# at all. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks a bunch for the reply!

[chevy_dog]

Why would a CA Firearm Shipment Approval number be needed if the item isn't being shipped, but handed over face to face?

"12072(f)(1)(A) Commencing July 1,2008, a person
who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the
United States Code may not deliver, sell, or
transfer a firearm to a person in California who is
licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing
with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code unless, prior to delivery, the person
intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm
obtains a verification number via the Internet for
the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the
department."

If you are a California FFL in another state, it looks like you don't meet the criteria of "A person in california who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44". You are a person in another state licensed pursuant to Chapter 44.

[ugimports]

Why would a CA Firearm Shipment Approval number be needed if the item isn't being shipped, but handed over face to face?

"12072(f)(1)(A) Commencing July 1,2008, a person
who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the
United States Code may not deliver, sell, or
transfer a firearm to a person in California who is
licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing
with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code unless, prior to delivery, the person
intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm
obtains a verification number via the Internet for
the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the
department."

If you are a California FFL in another state, it looks like you don't meet the criteria of "A person in california who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44". You are a person in another state licensed pursuant to Chapter 44.

Based on the OP it sounds like he is a CA based FFL that is visiting Georgia (in process of moving).

This leads me to believe his premises address is still in California.
This means when the GA FFL gives the firearm to him their bound book will show it delivered to the person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44.

This is technically no different then if they handed it to FedEx to deliver to the FFL. The only difference is he is taking delivery in person per federal regulations. The FFL bound book and the ATF trace would be identical. It's not like they make a notation in their bound book that says "handed to Fred who came in with copy of FFL".. No, they just have the FFLs info on the disposition line and whomever is a responsible party for that FFL would have to respond to any ATF trace that might come later.

I don't think the code you quote at the end is saying where the person physically is standing vs where the FFL premises location of said "person" is.

[audiophil2]

I'm pretty sure only a sole prop can take a gun without a 4473. Others are not the actual ffl and require a 4473.

[ugimports]

I'm pretty sure only a sole prop can take a gun without a 4473. Others are not the actual ffl and require a 4473.

Interesting...so if he has an LLC, but he is the owner that wouldn't qualify? I know that I've picked up some guns from CA FFLs that I was going to DROS to myself and they gave it to me with a CFLC approval number when I presented my FFL (which is an LLC).. Maybe we didn't do that correctly at the fed level.. Not sure now.

[chevy_dog]

I Agree with UG, it is best to get the shipping approval number, but the way the law was written, i don’t believe it is required. If the “intent “ of the law was to require this for all transactions, I would argue that differently since the platform is titled “shipment”, so the “intent” is for shipping not face to face out of state.

I am not a lawyer.

[audiophil2]

Interesting...so if he has an LLC, but he is the owner that wouldn't qualify? I know that I've picked up some guns from CA FFLs that I was going to DROS to myself and they gave it to me with a CFLC approval number when I presented my FFL (which is an LLC).. Maybe we didn't do that correctly at the fed level.. Not sure now.

It's been awhile since I looked up the law. I had no problem using my sole prop 01 to buy guns in other states with no 4473. For LLC I think the licensee can bypass 4473 but I don't think responsible persons can bypass 4473.

But even with the 01 most gun shops don't understand I don't need a 4473. MY ATF IOI told me as a sole prop I cannot do anything with a gun without putting it on my A&D books first. Even if I buy a gun in a parking lot using my DL and CCW I have to log it in first then I can log out as personal and not sell for a year or sell it off my books. I even changed my 07 over to sole prop so I am "married" to my FFLs. I can take my machine guns into any state (except CA due to DWP requirement) with no ATF approval.

[Kieran]

I'm pretty sure only a sole prop can take a gun without a 4473. Others are not the actual ffl and require a 4473.

Interesting...so if he has an LLC, but he is the owner that wouldn't qualify? I know that I've picked up some guns from CA FFLs that I was going to DROS to myself and they gave it to me with a CFLC approval number when I presented my FFL (which is an LLC).. Maybe we didn't do that correctly at the fed level.. Not sure now.

I don't believe this is true. I have a single-member LLC and I am the FFL. Furthermore, when applying for an FFL you must apply on behalf of an individual, no matter what. Regardless of my business structure, I alone am the FFL holder and if anyone besides me wanted to conduct transfers on behalf of my business they would need to be registered as an employee under me through the ATF.

Going beyond this, though my inventory is technically owned by my business, I own the business and I am the business, meaning I own the inventory. I'm not sure how this would change if it was a partnership or a corporation, but what I do know is that the FFL would still be tied to a single human individual.

The only purpose the LLC is really serving is to protect from liability. Sole-proprietorships mean that if someone sues, they sue you directly as a citizen, not your company.

[Kieran]

It's been awhile since I looked up the law. I had no problem using my sole prop 01 to buy guns in other states with no 4473. For LLC I think the licensee can bypass 4473 but I don't think responsible persons can bypass 4473.

But even with the 01 most gun shops don't understand I don't need a 4473. MY ATF IOI told me as a sole prop I cannot do anything with a gun without putting it on my A&D books first. Even if I buy a gun in a parking lot using my DL and CCW I have to log it in first then I can log out as personal and not sell for a year or sell it off my books. I even changed my 07 over to sole prop so I am "married" to my FFLs. I can take my machine guns into any state (except CA due to DWP requirement) with no ATF approval.

That sounds incredibly dubious to me. My local ATF agent directly contradicted this information, and said that if you buy a gun personally it's entirely up to you whether or not you put it on the books, and the only reason you should be putting it on the books is if you plan to sell it.

[Last2Die]

Interesting, When I did my ATF interview I was told buy the ATF as a Sole Prop I can purchase out of state. Everything goes through my A&D book from there I can sell it or transfer to personal inventory. the catch is as a CA FFL I can only DROS items that are legal to own in CA to myself.

Of course I'm new so what do I know..... still learning.

Tony

[audiophil2]

That sounds incredibly dubious to me. My local ATF agent directly contradicted this information, and said that if you buy a gun personally it's entirely up to you whether or not you put it on the books, and the only reason you should be putting it on the books is if you plan to sell it.

I'd suggest reading the ATF book.

[taperxz]

To much confusion here. My store is incorporated, I can pick up a gun and transfer it it to my store. As a corporation owner, the gun must go into my A&D and if I choose to own it, I must fill out a 4473 and DROS it to me with immediate delivery. A sole proprietor only needs to DROS it.

No 4473 is needed at all in the other state. It’s a dealer transfer and that dealer must use the CFLC to deliver the gun to ensure the CA FFL has a compliant, active CFD.