possible to do DROS not in person?

[p0x6]

Is there law the specially says that DROS has to be done in person?

[RickD427]

Is there law the specially says that DROS has to be done in person?

The DROS must be done in person, but you get to that conclusion through the combined effect of Penal Code section 28160(b) which requires the purchaser's thumbprint on the DROS, and 11CCR4220 which requires the dealer to physically collect the fingerprint (and making no other provision for the print to be remotely collected).

[SkyHawk]

There are also federal concerns for the 4473. From the form:

Generally, ATF Form 4473 must be completed at the licensed business premises when a firearm is transferred over-the-counter. Federal law, 18 U.S.C. 922(c), allows a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer to sell a firearm to a nonlicensee who does not appear in person at the licensee’s business premises only if the transferee/ buyer meets certain requirements. These requirements are set forth in section 922(c), 27 CFR 478.96(b), and ATF Procedure 2013-2 (or subsequent update).

Details here, I am sure this is a rare procedure even in the freest of states.

https://www.atf.gov/file/5221/download

and the updated doc: https://www.atf.gov/file/148156/download

And for CA, we unfortunately rarely get the "specifics" we want when it comes to gun laws. Either by intent or ignorance, CA lawmakers leave out a lot of details, or make multi-step cross reference to other laws and regulations both mentioned and unmentioned, leaving the hopeful law abider to much mental gymnastics to ferret out the facts.

[p0x6]

got it, thanks for all the info!

[p0x6]

i looked through a lot of material during the weekend. it doesn't look like there's a way to get around the fingerprint for the DROS.

but there are some ways the process could be streamlined.

ATF Proc. 2013-2
Purpose: This ATF procedure gives guidance to licensed importers, manufacturers, and dealers
(licensees) on how to record the sale of a firearm to an unlicensed person who:
a) Has a valid alternate permit or otherwise is exempt from National Instant Criminal
Background Check System (NICS) requirements;
b) Resides in the same State as the licensee; and
c) Does not appear in person at the licensee's business premises.

any idea what the `valid alternate permit` means? is it the FSC?

[Librarian]

i looked through a lot of material during the weekend. it doesn't look like there's a way to get around the fingerprint for the DROS.

but there are some ways the process could be streamlined.

ATF Proc. 2013-2
Purpose: This ATF procedure gives guidance to licensed importers, manufacturers, and dealers
(licensees) on how to record the sale of a firearm to an unlicensed person who:
a) Has a valid alternate permit or otherwise is exempt from National Instant Criminal
Background Check System (NICS) requirements;
b) Resides in the same State as the licensee; and
c) Does not appear in person at the licensee's business premises.

any idea what the `valid alternate permit` means? is it the FSC?

Doesn't much matter - CA FFLs must follow CA law, too.

Read Division 6 of Title 4 of Part 6 of California Penal Code.

And, unfortunately, you really need to read all of that to begin to understand.

[????? ????]

As evidenced by paragraph 20 of the criminal indictment at https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...6815.1.0_4.pdf not filling out the DROS and 4473 in person at the beginning of the 10 days is something the federal government does not look too kindly upon.

[SkyHawk]

any idea what the `valid alternate permit` means? is it the FSC?

No, not FSC. See the links I posted above for the details, which says:

Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(c)(1) and 27 CFR 478.96(b), the buyer must execute and attach to the Form 4473 a sworn statement in the format prescribed by 18 U.S.C. 922(c)(1) (set forth above), and, as applicable, a true copy signed and dated by the buyer of the valid alternate permit that qualifies as a NICS exception, and any other documentation required pursuant to State statute or published ordinance;

It must qualify as a NICS exception, which does not describe a FSC or any other type document that a mere mortal in Ca can obtain.


In some states, a carry permit is a NICS exception:

https://www.guns.com/news/2016/03/01/atf-determines-al-carry-license-qualifies-as-nics-exception

As evidenced by paragraph 20 of the criminal indictment at https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...6815.1.0_4.pdf not filling out the DROS and 4473 in person at the beginning of the 10 days is something the federal government does not look too kindly upon.

Yes, safe to say that it is not happening in CA for most people. Perhaps law enforcement agencies can have guns shipped to them without 4473/DROS - but not individuals

[XxWoodsHunterxX]

possible to do DROS not in person?

As evidenced by paragraph 20 of the criminal indictment at https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...6815.1.0_4.pdf not filling out the DROS and 4473 in person at the beginning of the 10 days is something the federal government does not look too kindly upon.