M2HB Still Legal in CA?

[KOVERT]

Are M2HB still legal in CA? I know they are not a rifle, but did they just change with the Franklin Armory "others" issue?

[Quiet]

Are M2HB still legal in CA? I know they are not a rifle, but did they just change with the Franklin Armory "others" issue?

CA DROS system will force it to be entered into the system as a "rifle" due to there being no "other" option for firearms.
^CA DROS limits firearms into a pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun category.

Unless exempt; .50BMG rifles are not legal to import, make, advertise for sale, transfer, or poessess in CA.

Semi-auto firearms that are not a pistol or a rifle and has restricted features is considered an assault weapon in CA.
Restricted features:
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a pistol grip.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a thumbhole stock.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a folding or telescoping stock.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a grenade or flare launcher.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a flash suppressor.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a forward pistol grip.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has threaded barrel.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a second handgrip.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a shroud.
Does not have a fixed magazine and can accept magazines outside of it's grip.
Does have a fixed magazine that has a capacity of 11 or more rounds.
Does have an overall length of less than 30".

Unless exempt; assault weapons are not legal to import, make, advertise for sale, transfer, or possess in CA.

If, before 09-01-2020, you legally own a semi-auto firearm that is not a rifle or pistol and has restricted features, then you are granted an exemption to possess it so that you can register it as an assault weapon or dispose of it, before 01-01-2022.



Penal Code 30515
(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
(9) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that does not have a fixed magazine, but that has any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(G) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(H) A second handgrip.
(I) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(J) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(10) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(11) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

[RickD427]

CA DROS system will force it to be entered into the system as a "rifle" due to there being no "other" option for firearms.
^CA DROS limits firearms into a pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun category.

Unless exempt; .50BMG rifles are not legal to import, make, advertise for sale, transfer, or poessess in CA.

Semi-auto firearms that are not a pistol or a rifle and has restricted features is considered an assault weapon in CA.
Restricted features:
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a pistol grip.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a thumbhole stock.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a folding or telescoping stock.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a grenade or flare launcher.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a flash suppressor.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a forward pistol grip.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has threaded barrel.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a second handgrip.
Does not have a fixed magazine and has a shroud.
Does not have a fixed magazine and can accept magazines outside of it's grip.
Does have a fixed magazine that has a capacity of 11 or more rounds.
Does have an overall length of less than 30".

Unless exempt; assault weapons are not legal to import, make, advertise for sale, transfer, or possess in CA.

If, before 09-01-2020, you legally own a semi-auto firearm that is not a rifle or pistol and has restricted features, then you are granted an exemption to possess it so that you can register it as an assault weapon or dispose of it, before 01-01-2022.



Penal Code 30515

This is an excellent summary.

But keep in mind that a "Business Rule" of DOJ that classifies a weapon as a rifle because of the lack of an appropriate classification does not change the content of the statutes. The Browning M2 is not a rifle under the statutes, and does not become one because it is so identified on a DROS record.

Up until SB 118 became effective, the semi-auto Browning M2 was clearly legal to own or possess in California.

SB 118 amended Penal Code section 30515, primarily to address the Franklin Armory "Title 1" weapon by including weapons that are not "rifles, pistols, or shotguns" and that possess any of the listed evil features.

The Semi-Auto Browning M2 possesses three of the listed evil features and that would now make it an "Assault Weapon."

[mkasda]

Which three?

[KOVERT]

Thanks, That's what I thought. You could technically register as a receiver if it was stripped but as soon as you assembled and added a barrel it would be an AW.

[RickD427]

Which three?

Here's the three:

1) Section 30515(a)(9)(H) - A second handgrip - The M2 has a handgrip on the right side of the trigger for the shooter's right hand, and a second handgrip on the left side of the trigger for the shooter's left hand.

2) Section 30515(a)(9)(I) - A barrel shroud - The M2 has a barrel shroud attached to the receiver. Please note that the section does not require the shroud be attached to the barrel. The use of the conjunctive "or" in the statute also covers receiver mounted shrouds that encircle, or partially encircle, the barrel.

3) Section 30515(a)(9)(J) - Magazine located outside of the handgrip. The M2 does not use a "magazine" in the traditional sense of the word. It uses a disintegrating belt that feeds into the upper forward part of the receiver. But it's important to consider the word "magazine" according to it's legal meaning and not it's common usage. Under Penal Code section 16890, the term "Magazine" means "any ammunition feeding device" which would include disintegrating belts.

[SI-guru]

If a semi-auto configuration of this one is modified for .510DTC, can this be DROS as multi calbre rifle ?

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/76/756/ramo-m2-50-cal-bmg-heavy-machine-gun

[SI-guru]

Or kydex grip a semi-auto version of this in .510DTC

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/m2amw-1.jpg

[SkyHawk]

Note that I'm just playing the advocate / contrarian here - I am not a lawyer. This bill was aimed squarely at things like the Franklin Title 1 (gee thanks a lot of Franklin - how'd you think that was gonna go?!?). The devil is in the details and ultimately will be left to the interpretation of morons when it matters most - at least in this state. So proceed with caution.

Here's the three:

1) Section 30515(a)(9)(H) - A second handgrip - The M2 has a handgrip on the right side of the trigger for the shooter's right hand, and a second handgrip on the left side of the trigger for the shooter's left hand.

2) Section 30515(a)(9)(I) - A barrel shroud - The M2 has a barrel shroud attached to the receiver. Please note that the section does not require the shroud be attached to the barrel. The use of the conjunctive "or" in the statute also covers receiver mounted shrouds that encircle, or partially encircle, the barrel.

3) Section 30515(a)(9)(J) - Magazine located outside of the handgrip. The M2 does not use a "magazine" in the traditional sense of the word. It uses a disintegrating belt that feeds into the upper forward part of the receiver. But it's important to consider the word "magazine" according to it's legal meaning and not it's common usage. Under Penal Code section 16890, the term "Magazine" means "any ammunition feeding device" which would include disintegrating belts.

1. You cannot hold and bring to bear the M2 with the left or right trigger grip or both. You cannot lift the weapon or carry the weapon with either grip. It is a crew served weapon. And neither grip is required to use the weapon.

But if you think second handgrip applies to a M2, then by that logic any place on any gun that you could place your second hand, is a handgrip. Whether you could actually lift the firearm with your hands or not doesn't matter


2. The shroud has to allow the bearer to not burn their hand, that does not describe the JACKET of the M2.

that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand

3. The magazine has to be outside the PISTOL grip, which the M2 does not have. Pistol grip is defined in other AW laws as "allowing a pistol style grasp". I have yet to see anyone hold a M2 like a Glock.

The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

[SI-guru]

Both of the examples above have shoulder resting stocks. I would think the are rifle and not any other. And if they are .510DTC, they can be rifle.

1. You cannot hold and bring to bear the M2 with the left or right trigger grip or both. You cannot lift the weapon or carry the weapon with either grip. It is a crew served weapon. And neither grip is required to use the weapon.

But if you think second handgrip applies to a M2, then by that logic any place on any gun that you could place your second hand, is a handgrip. Whether you could actually lift the firearm with your hands or not doesn't matter


2. The shroud has to allow the bearer to not burn their hand, that does not describe the JACKET of the M2.



3. The magazine has to be outside the PISTOL grip, which the M2 does not have. Pistol grip is defined in other AW laws as "allowing a pistol style grasp". I have yet to see anyone hold a M2 like a Glock.




Note that I'm just playing the advocate / contrarian here - I am not a lawyer. This bill was aimed quarely at things like the Franklin Title 1 (gee thanks a lot of Franklin - how'd you think that was gonna go?!?). The devil is in the details and ultimately will be left to the interpretation of morons when it matters most - at least in this state. So proceed with caution.

[Quiet]

1. You cannot hold and bring to bear the M2 with the left or right trigger grip or both. You cannot lift the weapon or carry the weapon with either grip. It is a crew served weapon. And neither grip is required to use the weapon.

But if you think second handgrip applies to a M2, then by that logic any place on any gun that you could place your second hand, is a handgrip. Whether you could actually lift the firearm with your hands or not doesn't matter

"Second handgrip" is any grip or textured surface, that is not the firearm's main grip, that can be utilized by the non-trigger hand to help in controlling the firearm.

A "second handgrip" is a restricted on semi-auto pistols that do not have a fixed magazine [PC 30515(a)(4)(B)] and on semi-auto firearms that are not pistols or rifles that do not have a fixed magazine [PC 30515(a)(9)(H)].

[Tankhatch]

You are definitely screwed, if you put a butt stock on a M2 in caliber 50 bmg, because that makes it into a caliber 50 bmg rifle. (by definition, not practically)
Thanks to the former Governor of Kalifornia, Arnold Schwartztrader, All caliber 50 bmg rifles are verboten and are a AW, if they were not registered by a certain date, many years ago.
NOTE,,,,, Only 50 BMG chambered rifles are a no no, if not registered
Other big caliber rifles, like 50 DTC,,,, .416 Barret, are good to go.

[RickD427]

You are definitely screwed, if you put a butt stock on a M2 in caliber 50 bmg, because that makes it into a caliber 50 bmg rifle. (by definition, not practically)
Thanks to the former Governor of Kalifornia, Arnold Schwartztrader, All caliber 50 bmg rifles are verboten and are a AW, if they were not registered by a certain date, many years ago.
NOTE,,,,, Only 50 BMG chambered rifles are a no no, if not registered
Other big caliber rifles, like 50 DTC,,,, .416 Barret, are good to go.

You're correct, but the new problem (Post - SB 118) with the M2 isn't because it's a .50 BMG weapon. It's because it's now a California-defined "Assault Weapon."

The distinction is significant. If you rechambered the M2 to .510DTC or .416 Barrett, it would still be illegal under SB 118.

[RickD427]

Note that I'm just playing the advocate / contrarian here - I am not a lawyer. This bill was aimed squarely at things like the Franklin Title 1 (gee thanks a lot of Franklin - how'd you think that was gonna go?!?). The devil is in the details and ultimately will be left to the interpretation of morons when it matters most - at least in this state. So proceed with caution.






1. You cannot hold and bring to bear the M2 with the left or right trigger grip or both. You cannot lift the weapon or carry the weapon with either grip. It is a crew served weapon. And neither grip is required to use the weapon.

But if you think second handgrip applies to a M2, then by that logic any place on any gun that you could place your second hand, is a handgrip. Whether you could actually lift the firearm with your hands or not doesn't matter


2. The shroud has to allow the bearer to not burn their hand, that does not describe the JACKET of the M2.



3. The magazine has to be outside the PISTOL grip, which the M2 does not have. Pistol grip is defined in other AW laws as "allowing a pistol style grasp". I have yet to see anyone hold a M2 like a Glock.

Skyhawk,

Copy your distinction of playing the "Devil's Advocate." That's cool and it makes for good discussion.

Your quite correct that the Franklin Armory "Title One" was the target (pun intended) for SB 118. But the Browning M2 got caught in the crossfire (second pun also intended).

It's also very apparent that the Browning M2 design was not fully considered by lawmakers when they chose the words of SB 118 (and by DOJ when they drafted corresponding regulations). But that's pretty much irrelevant. The statutes and regs remain authoritative.

There is no need for the handgrip to serve any function in carrying the weapon. The term is not defined in either the statutes or regs. The term "Second Handgrip" is defined in the regs, and the only requirement is that it provide a place for the shooter to grasp the weapon (interestingly, the regs use the term "pistol" rather than weapon). I'm not sure if there was a typo in your post. The M2 was designed for the shooter to grasp the starboard handgrip with their right hand, the port handgrip with their left hand, and to fire using both thumbs on the trigger. The weapon can be fired using only a single hand.

The M2 is not necessarily a crew-served weapon. It can be either crew-served, or a personal small arm, depending on its employment. In my last unit, we used the M2 as crew served on landside positions (with a shooter and loader) and as a personal small arm on boats, where a single person performed both functions.

The shroud does protect the shooter from burns. With the M2 configured to load from the port side, and eject from the starboard side, the loaders left hand comes into proximity with the barrel, and is protected from burns by the shroud.

Your point about the magazine (belt) illustrates the non-consideration of the M2 by lawmakers. But the fact that there is no pistol grip doesn't preclude something from being located outside of the non-existent grip.

But the real problem here is that any attempt to characterize the M2 as falling outside the new definition of an "Assault Weapon" is going to have to survive the inevitable test case. And the risk for the testee in that case is that they wind up with a felony conviction if the court doesn't accept their arguments.

[Tankhatch]

The m2 50 bmg, has a barrel support, not a "shroud" per US ARMY.
Note, the discussions of what / if a m2 50 bmg caliber is or is not an AW, has been beaten to death..
Only a jury, will vindicate, if a m2 in 50 bmg caliber, is a AW that needs to be registered / treated like a AW or that it is not an AW
Until then, you have a few options, before registration time runs out.
Register it as a AW and enjoy all the restrictions of AW's.
Play Russian roulette, that a jury does not call it a AW.
or
Get it physically out of Kalifornia (for CYA, treat it like a AW, don't sell, no shipping or side trips when going to Kalifornia ranges / private property or "out of state ranges")

To some owners, that I know, it will just be another gun, added to the growing list of registered guns owned.