For FFLs, about PPTs...

[ke6guj]

Kemasa, it is hard to prove a negative. If there is no evidence, it will be impossible to prove that there is no evidence. How bout this, If you have knowledge of this evidence, why not post it instead of having the other person try to prove that it doesn't exist? And when they don't find anything, you insult their searching skills.

[kemasa]

The other person is trying to prove that it has not happened by claiming to do an "exhaustive Internet search", which is a bogus claim and is really not honest. I could interview every elected official and see if it has ever been done, but I could miss someone.

Yes, it is hard to prove a negative, so it is best to not claim that you did.

[grimmreaper]

hey kemasa take a deep breath and relax before you go into CARDIAC ARREST!

[kemasa]

Hey, I am fine. I just don't like it when people claims to do an exhaustive Internet serach and claim that it proves anything at all. The person needs to be called on the carpet for it.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Hey, I am fine. I just don't like it when people claims to do an exhaustive Internet serach and claim that it proves anything at all. The person needs to be called on the carpet for it.

That is my point. Do you see how easy it is to screw your argument when you make these claims? I do not have to be honest or actually do what I say. All I have to do is say it and you can't prove me wrong, unless you have actual evidence. Which if you found just a single bit of it, you could make me look like a fool. Except I will just claim I made the whole exhaustive search up and admit you were right. Which I have no problem doing, but at this time without evidence, I don't have to.

So if I made the exhaustive search up, you still have no proof that your statement that we need to be careful of the anti's is valid. You still are losing.

Come on, you have to be logically smarter than this.

[kemasa]

The simple fact is that you should be concerned with how the firearms industry is viewed. You do not want to give any ammunition to the anti-gun people. There are a lot of people on the fence and such information could be used to sway them away.

The next aspect is that if you are dishonest, then any other statements you make will be questioned. I personally know of stories which are reported on the news and not one of them got the facts straight. Due to that, I don't believe the "news" at all, but many people due. I heard one person say "I know it is true because I read it in the LA Times".

So, you do need to be honest.

As you say, "you have to be logically smarter than this".

[tenpercentfirearms]

The simple fact is that you should be concerned with how the firearms industry is viewed. You do not want to give any ammunition to the anti-gun people. There are a lot of people on the fence and such information could be used to sway them away.

The next aspect is that if you are dishonest, then any other statements you make will be questioned. I personally know of stories which are reported on the news and not one of them got the facts straight. Due to that, I don't believe the "news" at all, but many people due. I heard one person say "I know it is true because I read it in the LA Times".

So, you do need to be honest.

As you say, "you have to be logically smarter than this".

You can't question my honesty if you can't prove I lied. You can't prove I lied until you have your own evidence. The burden of proof is on you now and I can smugly sit here and hold it over you. However, you put yourself in that position.

Sorry, I am not concerned with how anti-guners view the firearms industry. I know they hate our guts. I am also not concerned that a discussion of this technical nature is going to ever be relevant to a fence sitter who might be the swing vote on any gun rights issue. I would be willing to be even 95% of CALGUNS has stopped paying attention to this thread and it is only relevant to you or I.

So I see the "be careful what you say" is an excuse not to have a honest discussion on what to do in a practical situation.

If we were to care about our perception, then I wouldn't sell OLLs as the public will see me as just manipulating the system in order to violate the spirit of the law. Is that what you are suggesting we do? I wouldn't want an fence sitter to come in my shop and think I as being shady, they might ban guns!

[kemasa]

To whom do I have to prove that you lied? I am not suing you, so it is not to a judge. You admitted that you did not do the search, which proves that you lied. But even if you claim you were making statements, you claimed that I was not a dealer and did not deal with the CA DOJ, which is false (aka a lie). There is a difference between making a mistake and making statements which are false when you have no evidence to back it up.

Anyone can question the honesty of another. There is no court of honesty. Do you think that the reputation of a person is based only on having proof which is acceptable to a court of law???

[Rudolf the Red]

As a California Dealer, my notion from the DOJ is that they want handguns registered. If the origin of the PPT is questionable, the outcome is not. The handgun is now registered to a real person, CA knows where it is and made a buck on the deal.

[raymartrading]

Deceased Fiance

I would like to purchase a couple of guns from a friend. The problem is that the guns belonged to her now-deceased fiance. My friend is unsure if the guns are registered (but I assume that they were considering their spouse was active military).

I know I will have to go through a FFL at some point, but how would I go about obtaining these firearms legally?

Thanks in advance.

THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO BE LEGAL ADVICE.
I am thinking back to a long time ago . . . in a galaxy far, far away.

Basically, the fiance has no legal rights to the firearms. They belong to the deceased fiance's estate. If he had a living trust/will; they may already have been spoken for as specific gifts.

You may want to play 20 questions with the surviving fiance . . . or maybe patty cakes if she is a babe.

Don't do anything with the firearms until you know all the facts or else the both you could be found guilty of conversion (theft) by the administrator of the estate or by the beneficiaries. Once word gets out that she is selling his property; his family will come down on her and by implication--you, like a ton of bricks.

I hope all of you FFL's are listening. The prior exchanges about the DOJ and whatever are irrelevant. You can not claim you were/are an innocent intermediary! Based on the facts; you are/were knowingly aiding and abetting the unlawful dissipation of assets from his estate.

Guess who is going to get sued? Right, everybody who touched those firearms! Plus, I am sure the FEDS and DOJ will want to ask you a few questions about your due diligence. Are you making that much money on the transaction to threaten your license? Your livelihood?

Before you start crying about lawyers, just think . . . for a little money and time, you can control what happens to your property upon your death.

What? You are not going to die and are too lazy to plan for the future? You can do nothing and let your greedy relatives steal your safe with all of your precious guns or better yet; have your wife donate them to the Salvation Army or sell them for $25 because she always hated your gun collection!

IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN OR REAL PROPERTY, YOU NEED AN ESTATE PLAN. ASK ANNA NICOLE, now MICHAEL JACKSON.

Cheers,

[FortCourageArmory]

THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO BE LEGAL ADVICE.
I am thinking back to a long time ago . . . in a galaxy far, far away.

Basically, the fiance has no legal rights to the firearms. They belong to the deceased fiance's estate. If he had a living trust/will; they may already have been spoken for as specific gifts.

You may want to play 20 questions with the surviving fiance . . . or maybe patty cakes if she is a babe.

Don't do anything with the firearms until you know all the facts or else the both you could be found guilty of conversion (theft) by the administrator of the estate or by the beneficiaries. Once word gets out that she is selling his property; his family will come down on her and by implication--you, like a ton of bricks.

I hope all of you FFL's are listening. The prior exchanges about the DOJ and whatever are irrelevant. You can not claim you were/are an innocent intermediary! Based on the facts; you are/were knowingly aiding and abetting the unlawful dissipation of assets from his estate.

Guess who is going to get sued? Right, everybody who touched those firearms! Plus, I am sure the FEDS and DOJ will want to ask you a few questions about your due diligence. Are you making that much money on the transaction to threaten your license? Your livelihood?

Before you start crying about lawyers, just think . . . for a little money and time, you can control what happens to your property upon your death.

What? You are not going to die and are too lazy to plan for the future? You can do nothing and let your greedy relatives steal your safe with all of your precious guns or better yet; have your wife donate them to the Salvation Army or sell them for $25 because she always hated your gun collection!

IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN OR REAL PROPERTY, YOU NEED AN ESTATE PLAN. ASK ANNA NICOLE, now MICHAEL JACKSON.

Cheers,

I think I said all this back up in post #2....

[raymartrading]

My apologies. I missed your post.

[kemasa]

raymartrading gave more specifics as to why it was a bad idea and some of the issues which you could face, which I think was well said. While the simple answer should be enough, for some people it is not (based on the responses after that).

[jamesob]

don't ask the doj, they will give you the run around on this kind of stuff. i called them on how to transfer 2 handguns that belonged to my deceased sister inlaw. my neice who would be the legal owner ,gave them to me and told me to take care of it all. well the doj said that i should hire a lawyer on the legality of doing it, what the hell? no legality issues for me, they were givin to me. i say if the lady wants them gone and she has them and no other family member wants them, sell them and do the ppt. no theft or fraud involved.