Kicked out after dealer refused to PPT - legality?

[flectarn]

Long story short, I brought an AR complete lower receiver in to an FFL to do a PPT. The FFL fed me a bunch of crap about how he needed an Assault Weapons license to transfer this, its illegal, etc. I disagreed with him and they told me to do the transfer somewhere else.

No big deal, transferred at his competitor's across the freeway. And then bought a gun from them as well


Anyways, I began to question the legality of a dealer not doing the PPT on a completely legal firearm receiver. As far as I know, FFL's in CA are legally obligated to process all rifle PPT.


Thoughts?

[psssniper]

Had that experience once. I was kicked out of a store (sellers choice) and told that the store had also called the DOJ and reported me and the seller. Lots of fun!

A real FFL, namely OC Armory (my choice) promptly did the PPT after we walked in. Perfectly legal. Just needed an FFL that wasn't a tard.

My thoughts?
An FFL is basically an extension of the ATF and .GOV and can act in accordance with their (FFL's) interpretation of the laws.
The ATF, IIRC says that FFL's are obligated to deny what they consider an illegal transfer. ie straw purchase etc

Ta Da!! probably legit for them to deny you

[kemasa]

The law says that you have to make the request in writing.

You can report it to the CA DOJ, but I would not count on them doing anything.

[hermosabeach]

Some shops don't deal in black rifles....

With all the new laws, they just don't want the audit headache.....



Not to pick on you but we have had people rip into riflegear on the forum
Riflegear went so far as to pull their video footage and it showed the c guns member to be untrue....


Not saying you did anything wrong at the shop, but support a shop that wants your business.

[rustyx]

All and all isn't it up to the dealer to do a transfer or not? I've been told if you even look shady they'll tell you they can't do a transfer.

When I went in to get my first black rifle when I was 18 I was with my dad. My license at the time did not reflect my current address as I had just moved. Long story short they said I couldn't get it, my dad then said "well that's a good deal, I'll just buy it for myself" the dealer then interpreted this to be a straw purchase and told us both to leave.

In all reality I would have just gone back and bought another one once my new license arrived in the mail.

That actually set me off on buying an AR for a few years. I wasn't mad about the denial of me, it was about the fact they thought we would do something illegal, but aye, it's a business and they're allowed to practice however they see fit.

[taperxz]

All and all isn't it up to the dealer to do a transfer or not? I've been told if you even look shady they'll tell you they can't do a transfer.

When I went in to get my first black rifle when I was 18 I was with my dad. My license at the time did not reflect my current address as I had just moved. Long story short they said I couldn't get it, my dad then said "well that's a good deal, I'll just buy it for myself" the dealer then interpreted this to be a straw purchase and told us both to leave.

In all reality I would have just gone back and bought another one once my new license arrived in the mail.

That actually set me off on buying an AR for a few years. I wasn't mad about the denial of me, it was about the fact they thought we would do something illegal, but aye, it's a business and they're allowed to practice however they see fit.

This is the problem with customers right here. You were not denied your AR purchase. You just didn't or couldn't provide a government issued document to show your new address.

The FFL refused the transfer cause it was OBVIOUS your dad was trying to help YOU skirt the rules.

Not to be harsh because most customers are wrong on what is legal or not but it's clear you don't get what happened to you or why.

[SUBSONIC]

I do believe Federally, it is still legal for a parent to buy a firearm as a gift for their child...not a straw purchase. In California though you'd still have to transfer it later of course.......no problem.

[rustyx]

This is the problem with customers right here. You were not denied your AR purchase. You just didn't or couldn't provide a government issued document to show your new address.

The FFL refused the transfer cause it was OBVIOUS your dad was trying to help YOU skirt the rules.

Not to be harsh because most customers are wrong on what is legal or not but it's clear you don't get what happened to you or why.

No he wasn't trying to help me at all, I understood why I was denied the ability to dros it. I stated that. My dad wanted the rifle for himself, so he wanted to buy it.

I don't think you're being harsh at all. I understand the laws. Straw purchases are illegal. He wasn't going to purchase the rifle then give it to me. He wanted to add it to his collection. I already had guns, just not an AR.

I get where the FFL was coming from, but as I said before, it's how he interpreted the situation and it's up to the business to practice as they see fit.

[taperxz]

I do believe Federally, it is still legal for a parent to buy a firearm as a gift for their child...not a straw purchase. In California though you'd still have to transfer it later of course.......no problem.

Yes, parent can buy a gun and gift it to a child.

However when you are in the store, and the scenario plays out the way it did, a straw purchase can still be perceived and is still illegal under the circumstances.

A straw purchase can in fact take place between a Father and child if not done properly.

[kemasa]

I do believe Federally, it is still legal for a parent to buy a firearm as a gift for their child...not a straw purchase. In California though you'd still have to transfer it later of course.......no problem.

As a gift yes, to buy it for them and get paid back no.

[kemasa]

No he wasn't trying to help me at all, I understood why I was denied the ability to dros it. I stated that. My dad wanted the rifle for himself, so he wanted to buy it.

I don't think you're being harsh at all. I understand the laws. Straw purchases are illegal. He wasn't going to purchase the rifle then give it to me. He wanted to add it to his collection. I already had guns, just not an AR.

I get where the FFL was coming from, but as I said before, it's how he interpreted the situation and it's up to the business to practice as they see fit.

It is what it APPEARED to be, not what it actually was. The FFL can only go on what it looks like to them, not what it really is, no matter what you say.

[kemasa]

However when you are in the store, and the scenario plays out the way it did, a straw purchase can still be perceived and is still illegal under the circumstances.

No, what it really is determines whether it is illegal or not, not what it appears to be, but the FFL can only go on what it appears to be. So assuming what was said was true, it would not have been illegal, but the FFL is not a mind reader nor do they have a crystal ball, so their only real choice is to deny it.

[Guns and guitars]

CaDoj and the ATF have dealers scared for their livelihood.

Almost all the gun stores in my three county region have closed. Paperwork has tripled, laws have doubled and the amount of weapons they can even get from distributers is so limited now its ridiculous.

My local FFL is a great friend Ive known for years, and he is shutting down by spring to get out before the new laws.
I get it, its too much of a hassle to jump through hoops.

But in reality you can't blame a FFL that won't transfer, blame a populous that has made it a point to not ban together to out vote gun restrictions. Blame the people who are lining up to register, then bragging about it online.

Its a shame, but the gunners in this state did it to themselves.

Counting down the days until I file my own FFL back in America .

[taperxz]

No, what it really is determines whether it is illegal or not, not what it appears to be, but the FFL can only go on what it appears to be. So assuming what was said was true, it would not have been illegal, but the FFL is not a mind reader nor do they have a crystal ball, so their only real choice is to deny it.

Thats pretty much what i meant without going into detail and trying to assume the situation the person i was responding to was in.

You did clarify better than i did.

[rbetts]

So what was the make and model of your complete lower. I might have the same answer for you as your dealer if your lower was on either the Kasler or Roberti Roos list?????