Gunstore FUD?

[flyer898]

Today I purchased a bolt action rifle from a fellow Calgunner and did the PPT at a LGS. After looking at the rifle I confirmed it was probably a C&R based on serial number confirming a date of manufacture prior to 1967. I explained to the seller I needed his name, address, and CDL for my bound book because I am an 03 FFL. The seller had no issue with my need for his personal information.

This is where the gunstore FUD begins. The salesperson waiting on us (young person 20 something) expressed doubt that I needed to enter information in my bound book for a DROS transaction. I explained that I understand the federal regulations differently. At this point the LGS regulatory compliance manager chimed in and said if it is a C&R and I am an 03 FFL we did not need to do a DROS. I politely disagreed (and paid $35 for the privilege).

The compliance manager left and came back and said, guns are no longer C&R based on age greater than 50 years, but must be listed by make and model on the federal list. I kept quiet.

I am well aware that things change and sometimes rapidly in this area. After double-checking my authority, I will speak with the LGS general manager - I have done more than a few PPT and FFL transfers there. Many were C&R handguns. Before engaging them for other transactions, I need to know we are on the same page so far as understanding the rules.

[userformerlyknownasfitty]

I've heard things about this list as well. Some say that a gun doesn't qualify as C&R if it is not on this list. Others will say that this only applies to some rifles such as retro ar15's and such. Unfortunately I do not know which is true at the moment. If there are any FFL's who could clear this up, I am also eager to know.

[flyer898]

Unless the law has changed (I pay attention and I do not think it has) California determines C&R based on federal law, and federal law is 50+ years or named on the list. Colt Woodsman pistols are an example: they were manufactured until 1974, but all are listed; S&W Model 53 (.22 Jet) revolvers are similarly on the list for age and listing (also made into the 70s).

I was not willing to argue in public when it did not matter - would not have argued in public even if it did - not the right venue.

[Burbur]

C&R stands for Curio AND Relic, as in comprised of both Curios and Relics. Many, many people only understand half the story, but if a gun is on The List (curio), OR is 50+years old (relic), it is a C&R.

Now, as to DROS; you are correct. Even though you hold a 03FFL, you are not exempt from running a DROS PPT when transferring between two Californians. You can still get C&R firearms over the counter interstate face to face, but you MUST VOLUNTARILY report the aquisition via form 4100A.

You didn't mention, do you have a COE, and did they select the 10 day wait exemption?

[SkyHawk]

Transfer of C&R long gun in original configuration within CA does not require PPT if the buyer is Ca resident and has 03FFL and COE.

27 CFR 478.11 specifies how C&R firearms are defined.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

Any firearm made 50+ years to the current date is C&R if it is in original configuration. Period. It does not have to be on the list.

I personally would not log firearms into my bound book that I did a DROS for. Or if I did, I would log the PPT FFL as the source. If you did not use the privilege of the 03 FFL to obtain the firearm, and instead you obtained as if you were a non-licensee, why would you feel obliged to log it?

Maybe we could ask ATF for an opinion, at least they are willing to give them.

[flyer898]

I have an 03 FFL but no COE. The rifle is in jail until 10 days have passed. I may get a COE.

[zinfull]

You log all transactions of C&R's into the book no matter where you obtained the gun. When you DROS you enter the FFL into the book.

[kemasa]

If you have a C&R FFL, you still have to do the DROS when going through a FFL, but you don't do the 4473, so they should log it out to your C&R FFL and you log it in from them.

[Eddy's Shooting Sports]

You didn't mention, do you have a COE, and did they select the 10 day wait exemption?

If you have 03/COE you are waiting period exempt, but there is no C&R waiting period exemption in the drop down menu. The only way to do the waiting period exemption is a regular C&R DROS, which begs the question of what the FFL is allowed to charge. I have heard somewhere that DOJ once said you could call them to have a PPT DROS marked delivered by them manually. Any thoughts on this?

[Spaffo]

03 and COE exempts you from the 10 day wait, not the 4473 and DROS from an 01 FFL purchase. Still must be recorded in bound book.
Private party purchase of long gun in Ca with 03 and COE,
Send in the form.
Handgun purchase in Ca must go through FFL with 4473/DROS.

[kemasa]

03 and COE exempts you from the 10 day wait, not the 4473 and DROS from an 01 FFL purchase. Still must be recorded in bound book.
Private party purchase of long gun in Ca with 03 and COE,
Send in the form.
Handgun purchase in Ca must go through FFL with 4473/DROS.

Incorrect, a 03FFL is a Federal Licensee and therefore is exempt from the 4473.

[kemasa]

The only way to do the waiting period exemption is a regular C&R DROS, which begs the question of what the FFL is allowed to charge.

A reasonable FFL will just charge the PPT fee since it is easier than having to call the CA DOJ and dealing with their broken system.

There is also the issue that if the buyer is denied, it would have to be DROS'd back to the seller (not likely, but possible).

I have heard somewhere that DOJ once said you could call them to have a PPT DROS marked delivered by them manually. Any thoughts on this?

That is true. You call the number on the DES and they will mark it as delivered. The printout is still incorrect, so you have to wait 10 days to be able to print one that is final, as I recall. It is a good idea to do it this way to force them to deal with it and perhaps push them to get it fixed.

[steel30]

Transfer of C&R long gun in original configuration within CA does not require PPT if the buyer is Ca resident and has 03FFL and COE.

I personally would not log firearms into my bound book that I did a DROS for. Or if I did, I would log the PPT FFL as the source. If you did not use the privilege of the 03 FFL to obtain the firearm, and instead you obtained as if you were a non-licensee, why would you feel obliged to log it?

This is my understanding as well. If you purchase a C&R firearm and PPT it through an FFL then you are not using your 03FFL/COE, so no need to log the purchase in your bound book.

[kemasa]

This is my understanding as well. If you purchase a C&R firearm and PPT it through an FFL then you are not using your FFL03/COE, so no need to log the purchase bin your bound book.

See the Federal code. For example, a sole proprietor 01FFL is required to log any firearm that they acquire into their bound book even if they don't "use" their license.

[steel30]

See the Federal code. For example, a sole proprietor 01FFL is required to log any firearm that they acquire into their bound book even if they don't "use" their license.

If an 01FFL aquires a firearm legally in CA they would have to "use" their license and log it in.
01FFL has different regulations then an 03FFL. The OP doesn't even have a COE so his 03FFL is useless in CA for firearm purchases, no need for a bound book. If OP buys a C&R out of state then his 03FFL license would work and the purchase would need to be logged in the bound book and proper paperwork filled out and sent in.