Releasing on Undetermined

[ugimports]

Some updated data in post 18 if anyone cares.
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Note to dealers: if you're NOT going to release on undetermined then in my opinion make sure that policy is the same regardless of the race/gender/color/etc.. of the customer.
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I just had a customer (person A) whose friend (person B) had an undetermined result at another FFL. Fine, no issue. However, in the course of conversation with that dealer person A asked them if they would release to his wife instead of his friend in the exact same situation and they said yes. The only reason they didn't release to person B was because of his race and they were afraid of the liability if he commit a crime.

It had nothing to do with person B's sketchiness. Dude didn't smell like weed... my wife met with both of them today and person B seems just like any other normal customer...

So any way...this was more of a PSA.

And I will not name the other dealer because it's hearsay from my standpoint. Race of people involved is irrelevant as well.

This sounds like a discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen, but IANAL either so maybe not...

[acespawnshop]

So everyone is clear here and its a public forum and I've said it before and Ill say it again. Here, if the DOJ can not tell us NOT to release the firearm we have no reason to not do it. Undetermined gets delivered to the purchaser here.

[ugimports]

So everyone is clear here and its a public forum and I've said it before and Ill say it again. Here, if the DOJ can not tell us NOT to release the firearm we have no reason to not do it. Undetermined gets delivered to the purchaser here.

It's interesting because I took the CA DOJ Webinar for new dealers. They actually said when it's undetermined the DOJ is released from all liability if the FFL chooses to deliver. I'm not sure if that was a scare tactic for new folks or if they have specific PC to back that up (don't think so). I tried to ask a clarifying question but didn't get an answer.

[xsefan]

I don't release. If they have a reason for the delay it might be a good one.

[ugimports]

I don't release. If they have a reason for the delay it might be a good one.

It might be...it might be nothing too... Previous to us being able to have the option to release on undetermined I had a customer that was undetermined for 2 years. He had DROSd a firearm from me twice before the one that went undetermined. Not quite sure what the DOJ delay ever was, but I doubt it was a good one if they passed him 2 previous times and he wasn't convicted of anything obvious between the 2nd and 3rd (or it would have been immediate deny). He was happy to get his firearm after 2 years.

[yzErnie]

I don't release. If they have a reason for the delay it might be a good one.

But just as importantly, it could not be a good one.

[rbetts]

on the advanced webinar it was 66/33 hold Vs Release. Most appear to be holding on undetermined. . . .

[ugimports]

on the advanced webinar it was 66/33 hold Vs Release. Most appear to be holding on undetermined. . . .

I heard that too...I was surprised...

[Tyke8319]

DOJ made an interesting point: "We don't clear and release a firearm till we're absolutely certain there are no concerns."

Sounds like a reasonable habit to follow in my shop.

[I Swan]

One FFL told me depends on the buyer. Being they know me well and know I've passed many DROSes they said they would release to me if this happened.

[ugimports]

One FFL told me depends on the buyer. Being they know me well and know I've passed many DROSes they said they would release to me if this happened.

If they are going to do that I think it's better then straight up telling a guy they were denying because of race and then telling his friend that he was there with "yeah we'd release to your wife..."...that's pretty effed up...

[Desertdoc]

Well, in this thread I thought MAY, means the FFL has discretion. But I was told that MAY, in a legal sense means MUST.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=19147684#post19147684

[Tyke8319]

Well, in this thread I thought MAY, means the FFL has discretion. But I was told that MAY, in a legal sense means MUST.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4#post19147684

Absolutely not! May mean discretionary. Shall means must.

[kemasa]

There is often a reason why. It might be valid or it might not be, but I suspect that the attitude of the person might be guidance in which direction.

Doing a web search on the person's name might also assist in deciding what to do.

Yes, you should not do it based on race or other such reasons.

[pacrat]

Absolutely not! May mean discretionary. Shall means must.

Dictionary time. "May" denotes either possibility or permission.

"Possibility" would give discretion. But that is NOT how it is used in the PC. When "MAY" is used in the sentence "MAY THEN IMMEDIATELY TRANSFER". That removes all doubt as to the definition being used in exactly that context.

Regarding "undetermined status".....PC 28220 reads

(4) If the department is unable to ascertain the final disposition
of the arrest or criminal charge, or the outcome of the mental
health treatment or evaluation, or the purchaser's eligibility to
purchase a firearm, as described in paragraph (1), within 30 days of
the dealer's original submission of purchaser information to the
department pursuant to this section, the department shall immediately
notify the dealer and the dealer may then immediately transfer the
firearm to the purchaser, upon the dealer's recording on the register
or record of electronic transfer the date that the firearm is
transferred, the dealer signing the register or record of electronic
transfer indicating delivery of the firearm to that purchaser, and
the purchaser signing the register or record of electronic transfer
acknowledging the receipt of the firearm on the date that the firearm
is delivered to him or her.

Expressly granting immediate permission to transfer. Nothing discretionary at all is written into the law.

The same exact 'MAY THEN TRANSFER" language is used in PC when the transfer is approved.

The only place that "discretion" is implied, in relation to delivery after 30 days of "undetermined" is on Kamaltoe's DOJ website. Where she intentionally muddied the waters of "may then immediately transfer" by subtle misinformation of changing the definition of a simple 3 letter word.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms#tabs-2

She lied in the last sentence of the above quote, and it isn't the first time she has lied on official DOJ letterhead. Just like the 4 LEO agencies that got sued for hundreds of thousands of taxpayers dollars for believing a letter she sent them regarding "mandatory registration prior to LEGR release of firearms".

Simply compare what the actual PC says, and what Kamaltoe says it says.

Even putting "WE DO NOT RELEASE ON UNDETERMINED DOJ STATUS" on paperwork prior to sale does not protect a FFL from civil liability of Contract Law. Because a contract that contradicts PC is not a valid contract. At the end of the PC mandated 30 days if a customer is not denied. FFLs are obligated to follow the law and release, or face possible civil liability.

If a FFL refuses to release after the PC mandated 30 days. The FFL has illegally denied the buyer possession of their lawfully purchased property.

JM2c