FFL-03 PPT, ATF Form 4473

[sammass]

If, all parties living in CA, a licensed collector decides to sell a properly owned C&R rifle, using a CA FFL for the DROS, is the ATF Form 4473 still needed or will the sellers copy of the DROS transaction be sufficient? Am a bit lost on the wickets one must travel through. Was advised due to privacy, the seller is not entitled to a copy of the 4473, but cannot find any variance. Assistance please.

[acespawnshop]

Why would the seller keep a 4473? That's what the dealer keeps not the seller.

[ke6guj]

all the seller needs to do is log out the C&R rifle as going to the FFL doing the PPT. you don't log it out to the end-buyer, the middleman FFL will do that.

you dont' need any documentation other than keeping seller's copy of the PPT paperwork, if you wish.

[sammass]

Thanks for simplifying the information, Jack. Sort of what I was thinking, but couldn't find my exact situation in the regs. Still cross-eyed from all the CA ballot measures.

Ace, I AM a FFL, admittedly an 03, not an 01, but the required ATF Bound Book in BOLD print admonishes "BE SURE TO FILL OUT FORM 4473 ON FRIEARMS SALES". Ok... trying to follow the rules, I was asking for help to sort it out. Using a CA FFL01 to make the transaction follow CA requirements is fine, but perhaps being OCD on the dotted i's and crossed t's, I would rather not have an ATF inquiry on what I consider a simple transaction. Attempting to do my due diligence on the front end rather than be hammered on the fine details.

Thanks to you both for the input.

[ke6guj]

what required ATF bound book are you referring to? AFAIK, ATF does not provide a bound book or designate a specific design format. any bound book that you might find is designed by a 3rd party and that would be their notation about 4473, not that of the ATF.

and that is just a general notation since firearms sales between FFLs do not require a 4473.

[sammass]

Jack, Thanks for the amplification... For simplicity (perhaps not) I was using the Brownells 'Firearms Record of Receipt & Disposition Bound Book', which has numerous references to Title 27, code of Fed Regs, Part 478. It has about 6 pages of 'thou shall' & 'thou shall not' requirements. In reality, the bound book' can be an electronic printout, but for someone selling one item in 2.5 years, I can deal with keeping it simple with a ball point pen. I am sure in Part 478, there is verbiage on what is supposed to be done, but the clerical process escaped me. With a CA PPT, I use a local 01FFL and the paperwork was filled out at the FFL. Since I didn't "Prepare" the 4473, I would receive a copy of the CA Dealer's Record of Sale of Firearm - Seller Copy. But it isn't a 4473 per the Feds. I think I would have enough documentation to make a paper trail clear, but you know what happens with the IRS when you don't have the proper documentation. I would think the ATF or CA DOJ would be more difficult. Probably over thinking the process, but.... :-)

[ke6guj]

remember that that brownels bound book is probably biased towards FFL dealers, not FFL collectors. as an 03, you'd never have a buyer fill out a 4473. all you need to legally do when you sell that firearm is log the recipient's info into your bound book.

in this case, you just log out the firearm to the transfering FFL, that's it. you don't need a copy of his FFL. you don't even need (for federal) the seller's copy of the PPT paperwork if you don't want to keep it (but good idea to keep it as backup proof).

if ATF ever questioned it, you'd just show them your bound book and show them "I transfered it to XYZ FFL on 11-7-16".


there some C&R-centric bound book formats that you might want to look for that may be less confusing to you.

[kemasa]

If the buyer has a C&R FFL and the firearm is a C&R, then they should not fill out a 4473 as they are a licensee.

CA law requires that the seller and the buyer get a copy of the DROS, but there are two different versions of it, well, three versions in the case of a CA PPT since there is the dealer version, the seller's version and the buyer's version.

[sammass]

Thanks all for the clarifications. Sleeping better. :-)