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I need a definitive answer on this one. I have an FFL3/COE, and will be buying a C&R long gun from an out of state FFL1 dealer. The question is... Can they ship the gun directly to my address, or does CA law require it to be shipped to an FFL1?? Fed laws and CA laws are a PITA.... No guessing please, and thanks...
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WITHOUT THE 2nd THERE WON'T BE A 1st...] -
You can read the CA PC. I asked about it and my reading is that it now has to be shipped to a dealer. It used to only be handguns, but now it is both.
It is CA law which is the issue.Kemasa.
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We have had some spirited conversations around this. Here is a link to a recent one with links back to more spirited and detailed discussions
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Unfortunately, such discussions are not facts and actually ignore facts.
27565. (a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code
and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a
handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm
outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j)
of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by
Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state
under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed
collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the
department in a format prescribed by the department.Claiming that you are not importing if a delivery service drops it off at your door is interesting, although not correct.27585. (a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state
shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport
into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise
obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state
unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this
state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set
forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700)
and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the
following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with
Section 27565.
...
Remember the CA PC states which is illegal and a claim that one section allows for it while ignoring another which specifically prohibits it does not tend to work in court, especially when you look at the specifics.
So, looking at the CA PC, it appears that a C&R FFL can go out of state and bring a C&R firearm back, but otherwise it has to go through a dealer.Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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Thanks for the help and lesson. I have read some of the last discussions on the subject and came away scratching my head. I do have one last question. Since the C&R is shipped to a CA FFL1 using CFLC, is it possible to then pick it up as a C&R, and register it as an acquisition just as it would be if purchased directly from a private individual, which I have done without incidence??WITHOUT THE 2nd THERE WON'T BE A 1st...]Comment
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I agree with you and have made the exact same argument in these discussions, but we are in the minority with these views - and apparently it is heresey to point out these PCs and their nuances. There was an explicit exemption to PC27585 for C&R holders in the early drafts, but it was removed in the final. That says a lot IMO.Comment
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No, but it would be like buying a C&R from a dealer (almost). With a C&R FFL and COE, there would be no waiting period. You would be getting it from the dealer. I am not sure if you would have to log it or not though. Does not hurt to log it though.
Also, if the person that you are buying it from is a private party, it is an occasional sale and not from a business, then it would not be subject to sales tax (I have a letter from the BOE regarding this).Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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Wish it were a private party, but unfortunately it's an out of state dealer/auctioneer, and if I do end up with it, it ain't gona be cheap, and it'll cost a ton with the sales tax and the buyers premium. That's why the original question about direct delivery and registration via acquisition ...
I've been pouring over the PC's, and there are a couple of questions about 65 as well as a comment about 85.
In 65 (4) Is it 'actual possession' or 'actual physical possession'. To me, since the item has been paid for, I would own it...or 'possess it', perhaps under the definition of ownership??... And, ergo transport it. It doesn't say anything about personally transporting it.
In 85 (a) The entire section deals with a resident of this state with an addendum (b) exempting the resident FFL3 collector.
Plus has there been any cases dealing with this section??
Promise I won't ask any more questions...WITHOUT THE 2nd THERE WON'T BE A 1st...]Comment
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You would need to talk to an attorney, or make your case before a judge.
You could go out of state to acquire it.
My opinion is that it does not matter that you paid for, it has not been transferred to you. In any case, there is mention of your acquiring it while out of state. If you are in CA and you pay for it, you are not out of state, so it still would need to go through a dealer. Paying does not mean that you suddenly possess it. Yes, you can try to play word games, but then you need to consider how a judge might view it. Consider the cost of an attorney and all the time it might take. Yeah, you might not get caught, but ...
I don't know of any cases, but my opinion is that you don't want to take a chance of being the first one. You might be able to claim that you acquired it while out of state, even though it was shipped to you, and you might be able to get away with it, but if you get caught, you might not be able to own firearms anymore. Would that be worth the risk? For some it might be.Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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All of the hot air and opinions and handwringing can be set aside and the issued settled by one simple fact:
The out of state dealer, whether he honors your FFL03 / COE or not, will ask you for a CFLC number before shipping the item. You do not have one. Thus, the seller will require it to be sent to someone who does (a licensed dealer.)
End of story.Comment
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The CFLC is only required when shipping from a dealer to a CA dealer. It would not be needed when shipping (if you could) to a C&R FFL holder, the same as if the firearm was being returned to the owner after repairs.Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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03/06 FFLs and private individuals do not have to use CFLC when shipping to any FFL in CA. Like The CMP for example, or many private sellers on GunBroker.
And even 01 FFLs are not required to use CFLC for infrequent transfers of C&R long guns. The exemption is spelled out in PC27820.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=27820.
CFLC does little to settle this story and it is a discussion worth having.ARTICLE 5. Exceptions to the Requirement of Obtaining a Verification Number [27805 - 27835] ( Article 5 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )
27820.
If all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27555 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date but is not a replica, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.Last edited by SkyHawk; 10-14-2016, 5:21 PM.Comment
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Have you tried to put this academic theory into actual practice? I have an FFL03 and COE, and of the dozens of C&R long guns I have bought in the last couple years, nearly every single dealer sale has demanded a CFLC, thus rendering my creds worthless.
I see Skyhawk's citation above and it is factually correct. However, its vague language and confusing premise has had exactly the desired leislative intent: to hinder insterstate dealer to collector sales and make this state an undesirable place to conduct firearms commerce.Comment
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I have not had to deal with it since I am a dealer, but the CFLC web page makes it quite clear (see below).
The shipping to a C&R FFL holder is a different law/issue than the CFLC.I see Skyhawk's citation above and it is factually correct. However, its vague language and confusing premise has had exactly the desired leislative intent: to hinder insterstate dealer to collector sales and make this state an undesirable place to conduct firearms commerce.
4. Are any California FFLs exempt from the CFLC verification approval requirement?
Yes. The CFLC program does not apply to shipments made by Type 03 (curio and relic collectors) and Type 06 (ammunition dealers) FFLs.
See also:
Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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