Engraved lowers

[Marauder2003]

If I manage to find a FFL 07 that does engraving I assume he will have to enter them in his ATF log when he is done. What about California? Will I have to DROS them, too?

[swell1957]

07 FFL is not required to engrave a lower you made. FFL may not want to touch it though. Maybe other FFLs will chime in.
If you wait while it's done it doesn't have to be logged in the A&D book. If it stays overnight, yes, it must be logged.
The A&D book records the information on the firearm, the owner's name and address and date at the time of acquisition by the FFL. The disposition is logged only as the name of the owner, address and date.
No DROS, the firearm is returning to the original owner.

[Marauder2003]

I have had 2 engravers tell me ATF said they can't engrave finished lowers. They consider it manufacturing. Which means an 07 must do it.

[swell1957]

So are they an FFL?

If I had the capacity to engrave 100% lowers on-site, I would have no issue engraving your lower. The ATF has told me I can!
Maybe in the near future!

[Marauder2003]

They were not FFLs. Which is why ATF told them to cease and desist.

[swell1957]

They were not FFLs. Which is why ATF told them to cease and desist.

Agreed. Without an FFL you are not supposed to work on firearms, according to the ATF, even while the customer waits.

An FFL 01 or 07 can engrave a 100% lower. It's up to them if they feel comfortable accepting the unmarked firearm to engrave.

this is not legal advise. consult an attorney.

[franklinarmory]

Non FFLs work on NFA guns all the time, especially in finishing. The owner has to wait while the product is worked on so that is not a transfer. If the process is legal for NFA guns, it has to be legal for title 1 firearms.

Why not serialize the part before machining it?

We have considered offering an 80% lower in 2017 that would come serialized by us (an 07 FFL) per the federal statutes quoted by the new state law. It appears that that 80% lower may comply with all the legal requirements to be able to finish the lower without requiring a new serial number issued by CADOJ.

The problem with this scenario is that CADOJ could subsequently challenge the paradigm, and, if they won, a consumer could then be found to be out of compliance.

[swell1957]

Non FFLs work on NFA guns all the time, especially in finishing. The owner has to wait while the product is worked on so that is not a transfer. If the process is legal for NFA guns, it has to be legal for title 1 firearms.

Just because it "happens all the time" doesn't make it legal. If an individual is "engaged in the business," regardless of whether the customer waits or not, a license is required.

I asked this question to the ATF and a well-known so-cal firearms attorney and the answer is the same - a license is required if in the business (regardless of the customer being there). This is why these engravers were told to cease and desist by the ATF- they are not FFLs. Sure, it can be done without a license and people do it all the time, especially on Calguns, but it is a risk.

this is not legal advise. consult an attorney.

[swell1957]

Why not serialize the part before machining it?

Agreed. No issues serializing an 80%. I offer engraving services in San Diego, but my equipment is off-site, so it can't be a firearm. I have found that the marking (serial number, etc.) is usually an afterthought once the 80% is machined.
Also, what about everyone who already machine their 80's? This wasn't a concern until a few months ago.

[franklinarmory]

Just because it "happens all the time" doesn't make it legal. If an individual is "engaged in the business," regardless of whether the customer waits or not, a license is required.

I asked this question to the ATF and a well-known so-cal firearms attorney and the answer is the same - a license is required if in the business (regardless of the customer being there). This is why these engravers were told to cease and desist by the ATF- they are not FFLs. Sure, it can be done without a license and people do it all the time, especially on Calguns, but it is a risk.

this is not legal advise. consult an attorney.

True, anyone "in the business" of specifically engraving guns is a gunsmith. How many engravers are set up to engage in the business of only engraving firearms? My guess is not too many.

Do we have a copy of the C&D letter? I'm just curious.

[swell1957]

It's however the ATF wants to interpret "in the business." Apparently with these engravers it was enough to justify the cease and desist. They'll never tell you if it takes one or one hundred to be considered in the business. It's intentionally vague so even just one instance could be within the scope.

[franklinarmory]

Does that mean that you don't have a C&D letter? Again, just curious.

[swell1957]

Does that mean that you don't have a C&D letter? Again, just curious.

The OP mentioned the cease and desist.

[Marauder2003]

Does that mean that you don't have a C&D letter? Again, just curious.

One of the 2 folks I mentioned received the letter from an ATF agent at the Del Mar gun show.