Proof of residency for ATF

[DrJeds44]

ATF only requires a government document when an ID does not have the current address on it.

Very non specific of what a supplemental government document is.

If you do a CA DROS and the purchaser brings in what is required for CA as proof of residency, wouldn't the DROS paper work be a government document for ATF if it was offered as such and noted on the 4473?

Just throwing this out there for opinion since it could work but i know others might disagree.

We will eventually ask our lawyer and probably ATF but i would like to get opinions on this. Was this idea too simple to figure out or explicitly not allowed?

[Librarian]

ATF only requires a government document when an ID does not have the current address on it.

Very non specific of what a supplemental government document is.

If you do a CA DROS and the purchaser brings in what is required for CA as proof of residency, wouldn't the DROS paper work be a government document for ATF if it was offered as such and noted on the 4473?

Just throwing this out there for opinion since it could work but i know others might disagree.

We will eventually ask our lawyer and probably ATF but i would like to get opinions on this. Was this idea too simple to figure out or explicitly not allowed?

DROS doesn't work for identity - no picture. You knew that, I think.

27 CFR 178.11 Definitions

Identification document.

A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State, a foreign government, political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi- governmental organization which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

See also ATF's atf.gov/file/83651/download

Such an identification document may be supplemented with another valid government-issued document that contains the necessary information.

Thus, for example, a licensee may accept a valid driver's license that accurately reflects the purchaser's name, date of birth, and photograph, along with a vehicle registration issued by the State indicating the transferee's current address. Licensees should note that if the law of the State that issued the driver's license provides that the driver's license is invalid due to any reason (i.e., the license is expired or is no longer valid due to an unreported change of address), then the driver's license may not be used for identification purposes under the Brady Act. If a licensee has reasonable cause to question the validity of an identification document, he or she should not proceed with the transfer until those questions can be resolved.

I don't see DROS as a 'government issued document' in this context.

[DrJeds44]

DROS doesn't work - no picture.

27 CFR 178.11 Definitions

Perhaps i misstated. A DL works for the FEDS by itself as proof of identity. If the address is wrong, the ATF requires additional proof of residency in the form of a government document.

Car reg, water bill issued by a municipality ect.

Lets say the purchaser has a PG&E bill to satisfy the state, then you can produce a government issued document by print out DROS as the supplemental for the ATF.

The CA DROS paper work IMHO could be used as a "government issued document" as a supplemental to the wrong address being on the ID.

Just throwing this idea out there.

[PolishMike]

There is no such thing as "proof of residency" in the federal requirements. This is a CA requirement.

The feds require proof of identity.

Do not confuse these terms.

[ke6guj]

ok, proof of identity then.

would a DROS form be considered a "government issued document" that has the purchases name and current home address on it? it does have the purchaser's name and current home address on it. the question is "is it considered a "goverment issued document"? it is generated by a government-run computer system and the dealer is only printing out what CADOJ issued to them for the customer.

perhaps not try to use the brand-new DROS form for that transaction, but one that perhaps I got last week for a different transaction?

[DrJeds44]

There is no such thing as "proof of residency" in the federal requirements. This is a CA requirement.

The feds require proof of identity.

Do not confuse these terms.

No confusion here. However, line 20b of form 4473 specifically asks for proof of current address and a government issued document to back it up. (residency requirement)

[DrJeds44]

ok, proof of identity then.

would a DROS form be considered a "government issued document" that has the purchases name and current home address on it? it does have the purchaser's name and current home address on it. the question is "is it considered a "goverment issued document"? it is generated by a government-run computer system and the dealer is only printing out what CADOJ issued to them for the customer.

perhaps not try to use the brand-new DROS form for that transaction, but one that perhaps I got last week for a different transaction?

Why not the current? If state law is followed first, the current doc from DROS should (?) be a government doc to satisfy 20B on 4473.

Just throwing this against the wall for feedback as to why not?

[acespawnshop]

Interesting, I can see the answer from my inspector going something like this. ATF: What document did they produce for the original dros to satisfy 20B and CAL DOJ requirements and why can't they provide that this time?

[DrJeds44]

Interesting, I can see the answer from my inspector going something like this. ATF: What document did they produce for the original dros to satisfy 20B and CAL DOJ requirements and why can't they provide that this time?

CA doesn't require a government issued doc for DROS. (cable bill, lease ect.)

The ATF does require a gov. doc.

[kemasa]

I can see what you are trying to claim. The DROS is a government document, it has a period of validity and has the person's address.

With that said, I really don't think it would fly. I can't say why though. I doubt that you could convince a FFL to accept it, due in part because they have to submit it prior to the 4473 being filled out in order to get the document.

[DrJeds44]

I can see what you are trying to claim. The DROS is a government document, it has a period of validity and has the person's address.

With that said, I really don't think it would fly. I can't say why though. I doubt that you could convince a FFL to accept it, due in part because they have to submit it prior to the 4473 being filled out in order to get the document.

Thanks for the reply. I work in a gun store. One of the owners brain stormed this idea for those rare occasions where someone can be CA compliant but for whatever reason can't produce the govt. doc.

He said theoretically, it should suffice as being a legit gov doc but its something we would ask the ATF as to why it wouldn't work.

I just posted his idea here for opinions thanks all!

[BONECUTTER]

Thanks for the reply. I work in a gun store. One of the owners brain stormed this idea for those rare occasions where someone can be CA compliant but for whatever reason can't produce the govt. doc.

He said theoretically, it should suffice as being a legit gov doc but its something we would ask the ATF as to why it wouldn't work.

I just posted his idea here for opinions thanks all!

My biggest concern with it is the same reason they don't want you using a Hunting license. Its just scanned from the DL and is not stored in any data base. The DROS is one step worse cause I can type an address I want. The system will never reject or validate anything. Its not really government issued as its input by me and I'm just signing it saying to the best of my knowledge its true and correct based on what the customer is providing.

[kemasa]

If you have a Ham radio license, you can change your address to anything that you want and the result is a government document which is acceptable for proof of residency. Most government documents don't require real proof that you live there. You can get a government utility bill in your name at an address that you don't live at. There is no requirement that you provide proof that you own the place or are leasing the place.

It is somewhat of a joke since it means that homeless people don't have a right to buy a firearm.

Still, using the DROS as proof of residency just seems wrong. It might be acceptable, but I am not sure of how the BATF would view it. It seems to meet all of the requirements. The person would still need a document which is acceptable for CA, although could you say that the DROS would be acceptable for CA as well?

Honestly, it seems like something to be avoided.