Who is correct?

[acespawnshop]

We just had a lengthy argument here at the shop and we have different opinions as to who is right here.

Hypothetical: Customer John Smith ID address 123 Elm Street, wants to purchase a .22 bolt action. His current address as proved by CA DMV registration is 456 Maple Street. We note on 20b on the 4473 that we proved his address with such document. Is a photocopy of this document required for DOJ audit purposes?

Employee A says proof of residency is not required by DOJ for long guns, you note on the 4473 and move on.

Employee B says, a photocopy must be retained for DOJ audit purposes.

Who is correct?

[Baboosh]

DOJ cannot hold you responsible for 4473 errors.

Proof of residency is not needed for long guns. However if his ID does not match the address on the DROS form then you need a copy of the registration showing the address on the DROS form and a copy of his ID..

[71MUSTY]

What address is on his Medical MJ card.

J/k couldn't resist

[PolishMike]

When asking questions like this it is important to clarify if you are talking about USDOJ/ATF or CADOJ.

Because you are talking about 4473s, I assume you are talking about USDOJ/ATF.

In that case - NO. ATF does not require ANY copies of ANYTHING to be included on the 4473.

I file my state (which does require copies) and federal paperwork separately. There is no reason you should filing anything with your 4473s.

[acespawnshop]

To be a little more clear, during a CADOJ audit, if your Dealer Long Gun Sale DROS paperwork shows, John Smith 456 Maple Street, and the only document attached is a copy of his ID that shows John Smith 123 Elm St. , is this a violation? If so, what section was violated? In this hypothetical we have been obtaining copies as a CYA, but Employee A stated only proof of Identity and Age is required by DOJ for a longgun, and that proof of residence only applies for handguns.

[PolishMike]

To be a little more clear, during a DOJ audit, if your Dealer Long Gun Sale DROS paperwork shows, John Smith 456 Maple Street, and the only document attached is a copy of his ID that shows John Smith 123 Elm St. , is this a violation? If so, what section was violated? In this hypothetical we have been obtaining copies as a CYA, but Employee A stated only proof of Identity and Age is required by DOJ for a longgun, and that proof of residence only applies for handguns.

You are still mixing federal and state requirements.

Federally -
If the ID is not the correct address then you must note what you saw to verify the correct address on the 4473. No copies of either are required. (Proof of ID) There is no federal proof of residency requirement.

State -
Proof of residency is required only for handgun purchases. This may or may not be the same thing used for Proof of ID.

IMO there is no requirement to copy a proof of ID document and attach to DROS paperwork but my guys do because explaining those differences is too complicated.

[Baboosh]

IMO there is no requirement to copy a proof of ID document and attach to DROS paperwork but my guys do because explaining those differences is too complicated.

Are you sure if the ID given does not match the address on the DROS? We got a ding for this on our first DOJ audit.

[PolishMike]

Are you sure if the ID given does not match the address on the DROS? We got a ding for this on our first DOJ audit.

It may have been that particular inspectors wishes (we all know how that works) but I don't think it is a requirement rooted in PC.

This is the only thing I could find

(a) No handgun may be delivered unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents documentation indicating that the person is a California resident.
(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed, or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice.
(c) The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.

[acespawnshop]

Are you sure if the ID given does not match the address on the DROS? We got a ding for this on our first DOJ audit.

what penal code section did it say was violated? And was it for a LONGGUN DROS?

For instance, we got a violation in 2014 for PC 23635 saying that we didn't document Make/Model of the lock provided. However, the PC didn't state that the exact make/model of the lock needed to be indicated on the DROS.

[acespawnshop]

This was the argument exactly. Joe's standpoint was Employee A who said that since there is nothing in the PC that states we have to get copies of the document for CA DOJ then we don't have to.

Chris (me) is employee B who said, yeah your probably right but I would get copies since you have to get a copy of proof of residency an auditor would probably say that you should have retained copies of proof of address for a longgun purchase in this instance.

To expand on this matter, Joe's point was that its another example where the DOJ makes up rules as they go along.

Thanks for input.