FFL Buying Out of State

[kemasa]

BTW, this paragraph was not written by me.

How dare you call any free state gun shop anti-gun! CA FFLs advocated for universal background checks through PPT and then cried when they realized the $10 profit was impacting their business. There are plenty of stories on this website about how CA FFLs are illegally overcharging for PPTs or flat out illegally refusing to do them. You are a total hypocrite when you call anyone anti-gun. You pay taxes to the biggest anti-gun lobby in the world and support their efforts to add to your profits.

It is just an attack, but is also not relevant since there are FFLs who do illegal acts everywhere, but that is not the issue. The taxes claim is interesting, which means that there is an issue with every resident of any state which is anti-gun, but again it is just an attempt to defend a bad position.

[Kestryll]

BOTH OF YOU KNOCK OT OFF!!

I'm seeing insults from both and if this continues bans will follow.

[kemasa]

I know CA Law but i also know CA FFLs do not know the law.

There are many FFLs who don't know Federal law, nor their own state laws, so what?

How about I start just writing the approval number on my invoices and for every gun sent back to me you pay me $80 which would cover the shipping and labor needed to send it again with the non required print out?

Why should anyone pay you for the stupidity of others? Why are you so stupid as to suggest something so stupid? Distributors often print the number on their invoice and it does not seem like they have a problem with returns, so why do you?

Get secured funds, then you don't have to worry about it as you can then sell the firearm again to cover your costs.

Or should I just email you a few PDFs showing FFLs clearly stating they will return the shipment if the approval letter is not in the box?

That really does not mean much since it might not be accurate in what they will actually do if you include the number, not the letter. The letter does state what is being shipped, which can be a problem since some FFLs have been known to claim a lower is a handgun and without the actual letter, you don't know what they claimed was shipped. One letter I received it was claimed that I was shipped over 10k firearms. Without the letter, I would not have known, but I am not sure if anyone cares either.

The CA FFL can not keep a firearm from another FFL if they don't have the CFLC number, that is the law, bogus as it is. So the CA FFL can ship it back or they can turn it over to the police, which would you prefer? If they have the number, but not the letter, bill them and/or the customer and don't ship the firearm back until you get the money.

The time it takes to print out the letter is not the issue and why I stated I could go into a long and boring detail on how screwed up the system is in CA.

It seems that most of your reasons have nothing to do with the system in CA, but FFLs who don't have a clue of what to do. In other words, you don't seem to be able to understand what the problem is.

I have received firearms from FFLs who don't include ANY customer information on it. So by your "logic", I should not dealing with other FFLs since the system in the USA is so broken.

Most of the time CA FFLs do not supply the CFD#. It can take me up to 5 days to get it. You would think that a Ca FFL would know the number is needed but nope.

Yes, they should know, but that is a problem with that specific FFL, not ALL CA FFLs. It seems like it takes you a long time to get the number, which might be a problem with you. Tell the person who is ordering it to deal with it, then it takes very little of your time.

They have no clue. I've cut down on accepting new CA FFLs and have shortened my current CA FFL list because of these reasons:

Nothing quite like assuming that the CA FFL is guilty. It seems far more reasonable to not deal with those that you have a problem with, rather than someone who you have not.

Notice that you said "new CA FFLs", which means that you have NO clue as to whether they know what to do or not and you just assume that they will not do the right thing. It is pretty simple, they don't give you the needed info, you don't ship. A quick email to the customer telling them to deal with it can solve your problem and make it their problem.

1. FFL won't include CFD#

That is a problem with that specific FFL, not all CA FFLs. So refusing to deal with other FFLs is not fair to those who have done nothing wrong.

2. FFL does not know if a converted gun is legal so he ships it back

That is a problem with that specific FFL, not all CA FFLs. It is also a problem with the customer and a lack of communication in advance. Again, no reason to punish every other FFL in CA.

3. FFL overcharges tax

Really? I am curious as to what you think that the overcharging is. Unfortunately the CA BOE does not really answer to anyone, so they make rules to be what they want and they have decided that the TOTAL cost of the firearm, including shipping since it is not delivered directly to the buyer, is subject to sales tax, so please tell me how the FFL is overcharging tax? I suspect that you don't know and are wrong, but perhaps there are those FFLs who do overcharge and I would like to know what they are doing. Many undercharge tax. I am not sure of what business it is of yours with regards to the tax, it seems like that is between the FFL and the buyer, as well as the CA BOE, but not you.

4. FFL changes policy more than once a month or on the fly to prevent out of state transfers

Again, that is specific to that FFL. I don't know of any FFLs who do that. Perhaps you are making things up or you keep dealing with FFLs that you shouldn't, while refusing to deal with FFLs who have done nothing wrong.

5. FFL steals parts from my shipments and blames me.

And you think that is limited to CA FFLs? What world are you living it?

I had a FFL blame me for missing firearms from a shipment. It turns out that the firearms got out of the box. Not sure if someone at UPS tried to steal them or just a bad packaging job. The funny thing was that the FFL said that weight had to be accurate on the package due to how they did things, yet when the firearms were returned to them, missing the cases which had been delivered to me already, and they re-shipped the firearms after inspecting them, the claimed weight on the package was the same and not accurate. So perhaps that is a reason to not deal with any FFL, based on your flawed logic.

Please explain how this is a reason to not deal with CA FFLs? It seems like you have a negative bias towards CA FFLs, so you make bogus statements and apply it to ALL CA FFLs. Perhaps you should get out of the business, as well as seeking professional medical help since you seem to think that the actions of some should be placed on everyone else.

Charge a $10 Ca resident fee? The backlash and calls for boycotting would go global in seconds. Smart proposal.

Well, since there are those who charge $25 and there does not seem to be a global boycott, it seems that you are just making things up.

So do yourself a favor, don't ship to CA anymore. Don't ship to ANY FFL anymore as there can be some bad apples and so just blame every FFL out there, don't just limit it to CA FFLs.

Some FFLs don't include customer information, so don't deal with any other FFL.

Some FFLs refuse to give a copy of their FFL until you give them a copy of your FFL under the skewed logic that they don't know if you are a FFL, but then how do you know that they are a FFL? They also don't get that there is no requirement that the receiver get a copy of the FFL. The name and address is all that is needed, or even the number written down.

So because some FFLs do things wrong, any FFL could do something wrong, so avoid them all. Do all of the rest of the FFLs a favor and give up your license.

[kemasa]

BOTH OF YOU KNOCK OT OFF!!

I'm seeing insults from both and if this continues bans will follow.

I am responding to his attacks, defending myself, what is wrong with that? Notice that he spent time to "research" me in order to attack and insult me and I have not done anything like that to him. I am calling him on his absurd statements, which should be acceptable, so why threaten me?

[audiophil2]

I will try my best to keep this civil to prevent a ban.

I had a list of over 300 CA FFLs at one point. It has narrowed down to 100 or so after I weeded out a lot.

I weeded them out because:
They were doing illegal conversions and CA DOJ was calling me to ask how I shipped my guns. This was big in 2014 but still happens today.

They were overcharging tax. The latest instance was a few days ago when a client called all pissed at me because he was charged $200 more in tax than he expected. CA FFL charged full price on a rifle when only a complete lower was shipped. He said he got hammered by FTB so now he charges whatever he thinks will cover his tax bill. I can't just ignore the guy because he is my customer and I had to help him prove to his FFL that he was stealing money. If someone was ripping you off I would help you too.

They were accepting guns over the phone or via email but once the guns showed up they changed their mind and returned them. This happens when I sell guns for less than they can buy them for. I get better pricing on a lot of items due to volume and I pass those savings down to my clients instead of adding to my profit. I guess I am a lousy businessman.

They changed policy on the fly because they would undercut me if they had the same gun in stock collecting dust. I've talked to customers afterward and they said they would sell the gun below cost just to get it off the shelf.

There are other issues but I think these are the main ones. It is a CA issue. Not a nationwide issue.


You make it seem like the CFLC thing is not a big hassle. It is. If I have to get an FFL from someone I never used before I can wait from 15 minutes to 5 days. Usually it is 15-120 minutes because I get the FFL but then have to wait for someone to come back from lunch or the "guy in charge" of transfers to stop helping a customer so I can get the CFD#. A CA FFL should at the minimum know he has to include the cfd# but that is not the case. After 5 years of doing this I still have to beg for the number from FFLs I never shipped to before and that is why I try to keep a preferred list.

I looked you up because I want to see how much volume you do so I can see what I am doing wrong. When I see someone telling me that I am slow or another FFL is anti-gun I do take offense. I may be slow but it is because all the laws Ca imposes and all the extra BS a significant portion of CA FFLs add to the mess makes it hard for me to ship guns to CA quickly. I have some FFLs cfd#s memorized and know what they will accept or not. I can do their transfers almost as fast as a non Ca transfer. But that is the exception and not the norm. In free states I do not have to look up rosters, get shipper approvals and cfd#, or make sure an ffl will accept my gun. All I have to do is run an ez check and box the gun up. Those transfers help mitigate the Ca labor expenses. I do less work on a suppressor transfer from NC to a local client than I do on a typical CA transfer but you and others seem to think it is not a big deal.

After seeing your business volume I can see why you think the cflc is not a big issue. It's not a personal attack. I have a home based FFL near me that does appointment only also. He hardly does any business so I send clients to him when I am too busy. I had a new home based FFL come to me because he does not have his SOT yet so I helped him get a suppressor for his client. When he came in to my home he said I had more unique guns than Cabelas or Scottsdale Gun Club combined and that was just what I felt like putting on display that day. He spent 3 hours going through my file system and how I run my shop so he could copy me when he only planned on coming over for 10 minutes to pay for the suppressor.


Some old guy in AR that still unplugs his phone line and sticks it into his fax machine is not going to want to ship guns to CA. Calling him anti-gun is childish. If he has no profit incentive to ship to CA then he won't do it. I pay ITAR and could get the licensing to import. My brother in law works for an import/export company here in Phoenix and he handles gun documents. I have contacts in the Philippines and former Hungary. I tried importing AKs from Europe but the big importers would rather buy guns high and sell at a loss than allow another business to get a foothold on import contracts. I was ready to fly out to make the deal back in 2011. Does that mean I am anti-gun because I won't fight the big importers?

[ugimports]

I know CA Law but i also know CA FFLs do not know the law. How about I start just writing the approval number on my invoices and for every gun sent back to me you pay me $80 which would cover the shipping and labor needed to send it again with the non required print out?

I don't know why I would pay due to issues of your customer's FFL. I tell my customers it is THEIR responsibility to get me the FSA number from the seller if they are doing a transfer. I ensure all my relevant information is sent once I know where a shipment is coming from. You (or your shipping team) may have noticed since you've sent several shipments to me without incident.

Or should I just email you a few PDFs showing FFLs clearly stating they will return the shipment if the approval letter is not in the box?

If I was in your situation I would tell your customers a list of preferred dealers you have. If they choose someone outside of that network they need to be responsible for the issues. I've heard of some other outside of CA FFLs that do this. I've had out of state FFLs tell me they would only accept my FFL if I snail mailed it to them with it signed in blue/black ink. They had said receiving it any other way was illegal. Thanks goodness that's only happened twice. My point here is that there are FFLs that don't have a clue in every state.

The time it takes to print out the letter is not the issue and why I stated I could go into a long and boring detail on how screwed up the system is in CA. Most of the time CA FFLs do not supply the CFD#. It can take me up to 5 days to get it. You would think that a Ca FFL would know the number is needed but nope. They have no clue. I've cut down on accepting new CA FFLs and have shortened my current CA FFL list because of these reasons:
1. FFL won't include CFD#
2. FFL does not know if a converted gun is legal so he ships it back
3. FFL overcharges tax
4. FFL changes policy more than once a month or on the fly to prevent out of state transfers
5. FFL steals parts from my shipments and blames me.

Charge a $10 Ca resident fee? The backlash and calls for boycotting would go global in seconds. Smart proposal.

Yes I agree with you that this is all screwed up. The main point I was making is that it appears you go through all the hassle and heartache and troubles because it makes you money. If you did not think all this hassle dealing with CA was worth the $ you were getting I do not think you would be doing it. Any outside CA FFL that deals with CA and its absurd laws, regs, and FFLs that don't know our own laws do it because it's worth the $.

Additionally, I wouldn't necessarily add the $10 CA fee as a CA fee. Just build it into your margins. When you provide the quote if it's going to CA add $10, hell add $50. Your prices are competitive enough as it is that you'll probably still make the sale adding the $50. Or maybe your preferred dealer network has no fee and any FFL outside of that network has an additional charge. I'm not sure if your business model is volume with low margins (ala Walmart) or decent margins and great CA conversion service (what I thought it is/was).

As an example I don't charge CC fees or provide cash discount fees. Why? I build the CC fee into my margins because 90% of people pay that way. I get lucky if someone pays cash and I make a couple more points.

Like any business if the amount of time you spent on CA was more than the $ you were getting you would likely stop doing it. It's the same reason I stopped doing consignments. The CA second hand license cost me more than I made in consignment fees the 2 years I had it. What did I do? I didn't renew it and I no longer offer that service. It didn't work out for me.

[audiophil2]

I don't know why I would pay due to issues of your customer's FFL. I tell my customers it is THEIR responsibility to get me the FSA number from the seller if they are doing a transfer. I ensure all my relevant information is sent once I know where a shipment is coming from. You (or your shipping team) may have noticed since you've sent several shipments to me without incident.

You are one of my preferred FFLs. There are over a dozen around you but I only ship to 4 in that area. Kevin SMith is #1 because he had decades of experience.
Putting the work on the customer is not easy. They do not always understand what the cfd# is and if they do a lot of CA FFLs seem to think it is a secret number. A lot of FFLs (nationwide) will not even talk to a transfer customer about paperwork and want the dealers to only communicate. It is easier for me to assume all FFLs are that way so I do not have to play grape vine communications. Ship 1500+ guns a year and you will understand.


If I was in your situation I would tell your customers a list of preferred dealers you have. If they choose someone outside of that network they need to be responsible for the issues. I've heard of some other outside of CA FFLs that do this. I've had out of state FFLs tell me they would only accept my FFL if I snail mailed it to them with it signed in blue/black ink. They had said receiving it any other way was illegal. Thanks goodness that's only happened twice. My point here is that there are FFLs that don't have a clue in every state.

I started doing that a few years ago. That's why you get shipments from me. You are easy to work with unlike a bunch of dealers to the south and west of you. There are only 3 dealers in the San Jose area I ship to now. At one point a signed in ink FFL was the only legit paper. ATF changed it. There is a big difference in Ca FFLs and the rest. I have a lawyer on retainer just to help me with Ca law. I don't need that even for New York. I have to go to other competent CA FFLs to help me ship items because typical CA FFLs are hit or miss on the laws and a lot give bad info. Don't need to do that elsewhere.


Yes I agree with you that this is all screwed up. The main point I was making is that it appears you go through all the hassle and heartache and troubles because it makes you money. If you did not think all this hassle dealing with CA was worth the $ you were getting I do not think you would be doing it. Any outside CA FFL that deals with CA and its absurd laws, regs, and FFLs that don't know our own laws do it because it's worth the $.

Yes. After years of streamlining the process it makes me money. But all the money I make still opens me up to risk. Look at Exile Machine. He does not even sell guns and he got sued for shipping legal items. What FFL in their right mind wants to risk that? I risk it because it makes me money but I know at anytime I could be hauled off to jail. I have contingency plans for that possibility. Yet, Kemasa calls us anti-gun because we don't want to be sued or go to jail for shipping legal items.

Additionally, I wouldn't necessarily add the $10 CA fee as a CA fee. Just build it into your margins. When you provide the quote if it's going to CA add $10, hell add $50. Your prices are competitive enough as it is that you'll probably still make the sale adding the $50. Or maybe your preferred dealer network has no fee and any FFL outside of that network has an additional charge. I'm not sure if your business model is volume with low margins (ala Walmart) or decent margins and great CA conversion service (what I thought it is/was).

As an example I don't charge CC fees or provide cash discount fees. Why? I build the CC fee into my margins because 90% of people pay that way. I get lucky if someone pays cash and I make a couple more points.

Like any business if the amount of time you spent on CA was more than the $ you were getting you would likely stop doing it. It's the same reason I stopped doing consignments. The CA second hand license cost me more than I made in consignment fees the 2 years I had it. What did I do? I didn't renew it and I no longer offer that service. It didn't work out for me.

I sell nationwide. I can offset some of the time i waste on Ca sales with other sales. If I have to wait 2 hours to get a Ca cfd# I just ship other stuff while waiting. There are days when I have 3 or 4 CA shipments set to the side because of paperwork issues. My favorite one was a CA FFL that called me up yelling at me because a gun he bought was not shipped yet. I emailed him days earlier that his cflc was denied. He told me I did not know how to use the website or was putting in the wrong number. I told him to log in while we were on the phone and that is when he said it must have expired. No apology. Just told me he will get it fixed and call me back. I never sold a gun to him again.

[kemasa]

I will try my best to keep this civil to prevent a ban.

I had a list of over 300 CA FFLs at one point. It has narrowed down to 100 or so after I weeded out a lot.

That is best to weed them out based on what they have done, rather than where they are located.

I weeded them out because:
They were doing illegal conversions and CA DOJ was calling me to ask how I shipped my guns. This was big in 2014 but still happens today.

I would be interested in hearing more about this since I don't recall the CA DOJ going after any FFLs.

They were overcharging tax. The latest instance was a few days ago when a client called all pissed at me because he was charged $200 more in tax than he expected. CA FFL charged full price on a rifle when only a complete lower was shipped. He said he got hammered by FTB so now he charges whatever he thinks will cover his tax bill. I can't just ignore the guy because he is my customer and I had to help him prove to his FFL that he was stealing money. If someone was ripping you off I would help you too.

If you took the firearm apart and shipped it separately, the CA buyer still owes tax on it. If this was done to try to avoid taxes, it is tax evasion.

The CA FFL should not be collecting tax on what does not go through their business, but if the invoice shows additional items, it is placing the CA FFL in a bad position.

Yes, I would help them, but I would not complain about it.

They were accepting guns over the phone or via email but once the guns showed up they changed their mind and returned them. This happens when I sell guns for less than they can buy them for. I get better pricing on a lot of items due to volume and I pass those savings down to my clients instead of adding to my profit. I guess I am a lousy businessman.

That is a problem with those FFLs. Those FFLs should be outed and the customer could actually sue them in small claims court. Again, it is those specifics FFLs, not every FFL in CA.

They changed policy on the fly because they would undercut me if they had the same gun in stock collecting dust. I've talked to customers afterward and they said they would sell the gun below cost just to get it off the shelf.

That is also a problem with your customer if they agreed to buy the firearm and return yours and they should pay a price for it. It is unethical for the FFL to do that as well, and it would be a service to others to let people know who they are.

There are other issues but I think these are the main ones. It is a CA issue. Not a nationwide issue.

Those are not just CA issues. Some might be, due in part to issues in CA, but it is not really specific to CA.

You make it seem like the CFLC thing is not a big hassle. It is. If I have to get an FFL from someone I never used before I can wait from 15 minutes to 5 days. Usually it is 15-120 minutes because I get the FFL but then have to wait for someone to come back from lunch or the "guy in charge" of transfers to stop helping a customer so I can get the CFD#. A CA FFL should at the minimum know he has to include the cfd# but that is not the case. After 5 years of doing this I still have to beg for the number from FFLs I never shipped to before and that is why I try to keep a preferred list.

It is a hassle and it is stupid, but it is not what you are trying to make it out to be.

A FFL should know to include their email address, their phone number, the customer name, etc. on paperwork that is sent with the firearm, but many don't and that is not limited to CA.

I looked you up because I want to see how much volume you do so I can see what I am doing wrong. When I see someone telling me that I am slow or another FFL is anti-gun I do take offense. I may be slow but it is because all the laws Ca imposes and all the extra BS a significant portion of CA FFLs add to the mess makes it hard for me to ship guns to CA quickly. I have some FFLs cfd#s memorized and know what they will accept or not. I can do their transfers almost as fast as a non Ca transfer. But that is the exception and not the norm. In free states I do not have to look up rosters, get shipper approvals and cfd#, or make sure an ffl will accept my gun. All I have to do is run an ez check and box the gun up. Those transfers help mitigate the Ca labor expenses. I do less work on a suppressor transfer from NC to a local client than I do on a typical CA transfer but you and others seem to think it is not a big deal.

Refusing to ship to CA is anti-gun, I could say that I am sorry if you don't agree, but that is just the way it is. Some claim that it is "our" fault because "we" voted for those who created the laws, but that is false, I did not vote for a single one of them. I have also seen other false claims about who pushed for the laws. It makes a good attack, but it is not based in reality.

It is really not your problem to look up the roster, but decisions that you make can make it that way. Guaranteed funds and no returns puts the problem on the buyer, for example.

Look at what you posted and if you were to be honest, you would see it for what it really was, but you don't seem to want to admit that. You disagree with me and choose to attack on other aspects, rather than actually dealing with the issues being discussed.

After seeing your business volume I can see why you think the cflc is not a big issue. It's not a personal attack. I have a home based FFL near me that does appointment only also. He hardly does any business so I send clients to him when I am too busy. I had a new home based FFL come to me because he does not have his SOT yet so I helped him get a suppressor for his client. When he came in to my home he said I had more unique guns than Cabelas or Scottsdale Gun Club combined and that was just what I felt like putting on display that day. He spent 3 hours going through my file system and how I run my shop so he could copy me when he only planned on coming over for 10 minutes to pay for the suppressor.

You claim to know what my business volume is. Either you are making false claims or are likely committing illegal acts. The transfers I do is not public information. So which is it?

You also don't seem to understand that a CA FFL does not tend to have to generate the CFLC letter often since it is only for shipping to CA FFL.

Some old guy in AR that still unplugs his phone line and sticks it into his fax machine is not going to want to ship guns to CA. Calling him anti-gun is childish. If he has no profit incentive to ship to CA then he won't do it. I pay ITAR and could get the licensing to import. My brother in law works for an import/export company here in Phoenix and he handles gun documents. I have contacts in the Philippines and former Hungary. I tried importing AKs from Europe but the big importers would rather buy guns high and sell at a loss than allow another business to get a foothold on import contracts. I was ready to fly out to make the deal back in 2011. Does that mean I am anti-gun because I won't fight the big importers?

No, it is not childish. Considering the year, a FFL should have email and Internet access. There are few places where that is not possible.

Your importer issue is apples and oranges.

[INVINCIBULL84]

When shipping from an FFL in Texas to a FFL in CA does CA DOJ need to be notified?? Thanks

[ugimports]

If you count obtaining a CA DOJ Firearm Shipment Approval number being "notified", yes.