Private owner can't ship to FFL long gun?

[Tom-ADC]

I've never heard of this I can't ship a shotgun in state it has to go thru a FFL to FFL shipmate?

[SkyHawk]

Some FFLs will not take firearm shipments from private parties, but many will. There is no law against it. You can even use USPS for long guns. Find a new receiving FFL. Most will want a legible copy of photo ID of the shipper included in the shipment.

[ke6guj]

nothing in CA nor federal law requires that.

if the receiving FFL won't accept a shipment from a non-FFL, then find another FFL who will.

[Tom-ADC]

I'm trying to sell a shotgun to a member his FFL is telling him it's illegal for me to ship and my FFL must ship to his FFL, sounds to me like his guy doesn't want to be bothered or doesn't know the laws.
Plus he has to pay sales tax when it gets there? I thought that was only for guns bought out of state but not sure?

[ke6guj]

tell the buyer that he needs to find another FFL. otherwise, he should pay the costs that you incur to get an FFL to ship it.

[V8MERC124]

Whoa? Fill me in on this. Can I in california ship a pistol, shotgun or a longarm to a california FFL, or even other states? I was always under the impression it has to be shipped from my ffl to buyers ffl.

[Librarian]

Whoa? Fill me in on this. Can I in california ship a pistol, shotgun or a longarm to a california FFL, or even other states? I was always under the impression it has to be shipped from my ffl to buyers ffl.

Nothing to say, really - FFL to FFL is not a requirement in either CA or Federal law.

Some FFLs don't want to receive from private individuals; that's their business policy. Call ahead and ask.

Now, it may turn out that shipping through an FFL would be less expensive then UPS or whatever, even with the payment to the shipping FFL for that service.

[SkyHawk]

I'm trying to sell a shotgun to a member his FFL is telling him it's illegal for me to ship and my FFL must ship to his FFL, sounds to me like his guy doesn't want to be bothered or doesn't know the laws.
Plus he has to pay sales tax when it gets there? I thought that was only for guns bought out of state but not sure?

If there is no invoice and he says it was a gift or a prize, HTF are they going to charge him tax exactly? And you are correct, sales from private parties, even if they come from out of state, are not taxable.

The sales that are taxable are transfers shipped from businesses or people who are regularly engaged in the business of selling guns. And even then, if there is no invoice showing a sale amount, there can be no tax applied.

Bottom line, this guy needs to find a new FFL. The one he is talking to now has practically extended him an invitation to do business elsewhere, and I wouldn't miss the opportunity to oblige them if it were me.

[ugimports]

If there is no invoice and he says it was a gift or a prize, HTF are they going to charge him tax exactly? And you are correct, sales from private parties, even if they come from out of state, are not taxable.

Not necessarily true (bolded part). See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=366781

The sales that are taxable are transfers shipped from businesses or people who are regularly engaged in the business of selling guns. And even then, if there is no invoice showing a sale amount, there can be no tax applied.

Not true - no invoice I use MSRP. Used gun, I look up gunbroker and choose one or try to find in gun blue book. Lack of invoice != no sales tax. It means you pay MSRP so if you got a deal it's not much of a deal anymore. Also I believe covered in the thread above.

Now the topic is quite convoluted and questions always come up so that's why there are 7 pages to that thread.

[SkyHawk]

Not necessarily true. See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=366781


Not true - no invoice I use MSRP. Used gun, I look up gunbroker and choose one or try to find in gun blue book. Lack of invoice != no sales tax. It means you pay MSRP so if you got a deal it's not much of a deal anymore. Also I believe covered in the thread above.

Now the topic is quite convoluted and questions always come up so that's why there are 7 pages to that thread.

So if I win a gun or I am gifted a gun, you are going to charge me sales tax? If the gun comes with an invoice that says $1 sale, are you going to make up your own sale price and tax? See my reference to "the invitation" above...

I deal with FFLs who don't make shiate up as they go along, and thank god there are plenty of them to deal with..

[ugimports]

So if I win a gun or I am gifted a gun, you are going to charge me sales tax? If the gun comes with an invoice that says $1 sale, are you going to make up your own sale price and tax? See my reference to "the invitation" above...

I deal with FFLs who don't make shiate up as they go along, and thank god there are plenty of them to deal with..

Gifted is different.

Win is different.

You made a blanket statement:

The sales that are taxable are transfers shipped from businesses or people who are regularly engaged in the business of selling guns. And even then, if there is no invoice showing a sale amount, there can be no tax applied.

That's why I didn't quote your statement about the gift or prize gun. I was not addressing that statement.

That's also why I said the issue is complex.

Also the part I did quote about the private party is why I said "not necessarily true".. I didn't want to quote all the BOE stuff which is why I referred to the thread that already exists..I fixed my reference to the part I had quoted..

[ugimports]

Also regarding the $1 invoice.. Remember the FFL you are going to is liable for the tax. If the invoice is legit e.g., Buds Gun Shop Invoice shows $1 I'd likely accept it. If it's a handwritten note that says you paid $1 I wouldn't. If it's from a private party and you can convince them to write up a false invoice and the price looks realistic that's fine too. I don't mess around with customers that want me to pay their sales tax either and it's not due to me making up shiate. It's due to being audited by the BOE and not wanting to pay penalties because of BS invoices for customers that don't intend to pay the taxes they are supposed to.

Now, I don't agree that you should have to, but I don't agree with a lot of things with CA law, but still have to follow them.

In fact, I'm working with a lawyer now and going back and forth with the BOE trying to get all this BS fixed to what the rest of us think it should be. So yes, I think it's BS, but until some other official ruling is posted expect FFLs to have to make a good faith effort to collect the proper tax.

[Tom-ADC]

Want to thank everyone for helping out, everything got cleared up and its all good to go.

[Baboosh]

We do not allow $1 receipts due to the fact that the BOE holds the FFL responsible and I don't really want to spend thousands defending myself against the BOE because someone wanted to save $50 in sales tax.

Some FFLs do not charge sales tax, some let you write a $1 receipt. being someone who has dealt with the BOE there is a zero chance I am going to try and pull a fast one on them. They seize everything and ask questions later.

[kemasa]

Plus he has to pay sales tax when it gets there? I thought that was only for guns bought out of state but not sure?

If you document that it is a private sale, an occasional sale and not from a business, then it is not subject to sales tax. The CA BOE changed their view and most firearms from out of state are subject to sales tax.

If there is no invoice and he says it was a gift or a prize, HTF are they going to charge him tax exactly? And you are correct, sales from private parties, even if they come from out of state, are not taxable.

If it is a fake letter and it appears to be tax evasion, the FFL might stop the sale completely.

You are also incorrect about private sales from out of state.

The sales that are taxable are transfers shipped from businesses or people who are regularly engaged in the business of selling guns. And even then, if there is no invoice showing a sale amount, there can be no tax applied.

You need to educate yourself and stop giving out false information. The CA BOE has said that private party firearms from out of state are subject to sales tax in most cases. The claim that if there is no invoice that there is no sales tax is just so absurd.

So if I win a gun or I am gifted a gun, you are going to charge me sales tax? If the gun comes with an invoice that says $1 sale, are you going to make up your own sale price and tax? See my reference to "the invitation" above...

If it is a real gift, then there is no sales tax. False claims would be tax evasion and no FFL in their right mind would want to get involved with that. The same is true for fake receipts with false amounts.

I talked to the CA BOE a while back and the FFL is in a bad position. They said that if there was a receipt and it turned out to be false, the FFL is still responsible for the sales tax. So any fake receipts should be taken very seriously and the FFL should stop the transfer so as to not put themselves in a very bad situation.

Also regarding the $1 invoice.. Remember the FFL you are going to is liable for the tax. If the invoice is legit e.g., Buds Gun Shop Invoice shows $1 I'd likely accept it. If it's a handwritten note that says you paid $1 I wouldn't. If it's from a private party and you can convince them to write up a false invoice and the price looks realistic that's fine too. I don't mess around with customers that want me to pay their sales tax either and it's not due to me making up shiate. It's due to being audited by the BOE and not wanting to pay penalties because of BS invoices for customers that don't intend to pay the taxes they are supposed to.

Any false receipts should be dealt with. If you don't, it could cost you a lot of money.

With firearms, it is the responsibility for the FFL to pay it.

We do not allow $1 receipts due to the fact that the BOE holds the FFL responsible and I don't really want to spend thousands defending myself against the BOE because someone wanted to save $50 in sales tax.

Some FFLs do not charge sales tax, some let you write a $1 receipt. being someone who has dealt with the BOE there is a zero chance I am going to try and pull a fast one on them. They seize everything and ask questions later.

This is the reality. The FFL can't win at all.

My view is that I won't do a transfer for anyone who wants to do something illegal.