Undetermined DROS & Pvt Party

[Chewy65]

When I bought a handgun from a Calfornia dealer several months ago the sale was put on delay by the DOJ. After 30 days status was changed to undetermined and my dealer delivered. I understand that some do not, depending on the sales agreement.

What happens if I buy another handgun in a private party purchase and the DOJ again delays the sale? Will that depend on the agreement with the private seller and the particular FFL's policies? I am thinnking it may be smart to go with a dealer, such as the one I used last, who delivers to "undetermined" buyers.

[acespawnshop]

If its Denied then the firearm goes back to the seller. If its undetermined then its at the dealers discretion if they will deliver it to you or not.

[ke6guj]

it if is undermined, and the FFL decides to to deliver to the buyer, does he immediately return it to the seller? does CADOJ do a seller BG check before they tell you that the buyer is undermined?

[tenpercentfirearms]

I would ask the dealer who you are going to PPT with. Any dealer that says anything other than, "As long as you are not talking about doing something unlawful, there is no way in hell I am going to deny your undermined transaction, ever!" I wouldn't do business with anyway. It blows my mind they say, "It is up the dealer." If the DOJ can't figure out if you are good to go or not, then you are good to go in my book. Unless you come in talking about killing people, I assume you are a law abiding citizen and am going to give you your property.

Ask the dealer.

More importantly, hash this out with your seller too. As Jack pointed out, by law the gun is supposed to go back to the seller. Does the seller have a no refunds policy? It is best to hash all of this out before time and even better yet to get it in writing.

[Chewy65]

Thank you all. After reading your thoughts, I will likely not buy private party and go with a recognized dealer with a clear policy regarding delayed and undetermined sales. (The other time I went through this RifleGear delivered. I know that Turners does not.) Especially as the price of what I am considering isn't much more new than what I would pay a private party. For the same reason I don't think I will even try to do on on line buy from an out of state seller (if it even sells CA approved models to CA).

[BONECUTTER]

Thank you all. After reading your thoughts, I will likely not buy private party and go with a recognized dealer with a clear policy regarding delayed and undetermined sales. (The other time I went through this RifleGear delivered. I know that Turners does not.) Especially as the price of what I am considering isn't much more new than what I would pay a private party. For the same reason I don't think I will even try to do on on line buy from an out of state seller (if it even sells CA approved models to CA).

Sounds like you are giving the state exactly what it wants .... I would keep buying and get a lawyer involved if they keep delaying you for no reason. Any dealer who does not release on undetermined is opening themselves up to legal issues unless you sign something saying its OK....or you say something really stupid when you go to pick up.

I would intentional go to those places that say they will not deliver as well and refuse to sign anything that says that's OK. Give me my gun or all my money back. Time to cost them money/time and potential legal issues for being stupid.

[Chewy65]

Sounds like you are giving the state exactly what it wants .... I would keep buying and get a lawyer involved if they keep delaying you for no reason. Any dealer who does not release on undetermined is opening themselves up to legal issues unless you sign something saying its OK....or you say something really stupid when you go to pick up.

I would intentional go to those places that say they will not deliver as well and refuse to sign anything that says that's OK. Give me my gun or all my money back. Time to cost them money/time and potential legal issues for being stupid.

Basically, the part with bold emphasis was what I gathered the other time I was delayed, at which time I dug this up: a post by BWeise.

On behalf of CAL-FFL and our dealer members, firearms attorney Jason Davis of Mission Viejo, CA, has evaluated the issue and warns that firearm retailers should be mindful of the risks of improperly denying a firearm purchaser their property.

A sale is a contract where money is exchanged for product (in these cases, a firearm(s)). Given that the law states that a dealer may deliver the firearm, and there is nothing legally prohibiting the dealer from delivering the firearm, the denial of the property to the owner may constitute a breach of contract and/or conversion of property.

Unless the sale contract states that (1) fees paid to the DOJ are non-refundable and that firearms will only be transferred if “approved” by the DOJ, and

(2) that firearm purchasers whose eligibility is not determined by the DOJ to be authorized to receive a firearm (e.g. “Approved” and not “Undetermined” or “Denied”) will not have the firearm transferred to them, a retailer might consider negotiating a settlement including refunding the money paid and the fees charged for the firearm(s) purchase.

Based on that and some things I picked up here and there, I know how to handle a sale should I buy from a dealer and not a PP. My concern was what a FFL would do; deliver the gun to me or return it to the seller. From what the FFL's posted, I gather the smart thing is to work that out in advance with the FFL and the seller.

Why you think I am doing what the state wants, by patronizing a lgs that isn't afraid to deliver to an undetermined is beyond me. By turning away from a Turner's, which's policy is to kill the sale if you are not approved, and going with a dealer that delivers to an undetermined, a buyer encourages dealers not to be intimidated by the DOJ.

[BONECUTTER]

Why you think I am doing what the state wants, by patronizing a lgs that isn't afraid to deliver to an undetermined is beyond me. By turning away from a Turner's, which's policy is to kill the sale if you are not approved, and going with a dealer that delivers to an undetermined, a buyer encourages dealers not to be intimidated by the DOJ.

The state wants to discourage you. They try to put fear into dealers that it's up to them.....but its not. The dealer does not have any way to determine prohibited people or not. That's why in other states NICS delays are for 3 days, after that you can pick up. Any dealer who would deny you based on no evidence does not support the second amendment and needs to be called out on it again and again.

Shop where ever you want but I would make those stores life more difficult. That's all my post was saying.

[Chewy65]

The state wants to discourage you. They try to put fear into dealers that it's up to them.....but its not. The dealer does not have any way to determine prohibited people or not. That's why in other states NICS delays are for 3 days, after that you can pick up. Any dealer who would deny you based on no evidence does not support the second amendment and needs to be called out on it again and again.

Shop where ever you want but I would make those stores life more difficult. That's all my post was saying.

I can't fault you for what you suggest, Bonecutter, but I either spend my limited resources at a dealer who supports the 2A or tie them and my time up with a Turner's.

Actually, a dealer has a very limited duty not to deliver to someone who appears to be a prohibited person or a straw buyer, but the DOJ runs the background check. If the DOJ doesn't deny you, being undetermined only means the DOJ was unable yp or failed to do its job. You are right in that Cali wants to scare dealers into cancelling sales.